Episode 85: From Colonial Kitchens to Concretes: Two Centuries of St. Louis Food with Suzanne Corbett

In this episode, we dig into St. Louis culinary history with food historian Suzanne Corbett. We look back at the foodways of indigenous cultures and early French settlers, which leads us to a discussion about portable soup. We talk about truck gardens and Corbett’s experience growing up on one. We then tour the various styles of food in St. Louis today, including the Italian specialties in the neighborhood known as The Hill. We touch on a few St. Louis specialties, including St. Louis-style pizza and provel cheese, gooey butter cake, the St. Paul sandwich, and the Gerber sandwich. We end with a short discussion of three local landmarks: Crown Candy Kitchen, Al’s Restaurant, and Ted Drewes Frozen Custard. This is a fun conversation about feeding our curiosity, literally and figurately, and discovering how food connects us with the past and present and tells us something about who we are.

Follow Suzanne Corbett on Instagram

Historic sites mentioned in this episode:

• White Haven/Ulysses S. Grant Historic Site
• Campbell House
• Felix Valle House (Ste. Genevieve)

More about The Hill neighborhood

Classic restaurants mentioned in this episode:

• Crown Candy Kitchen
• Al’s Restaurant
• Ted Drewes Frozen Custard

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Sun, Sep 27, 2026 1:49PM • 1:07:11

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

Food history, St. Louis, Suzanne Corbett, Culinary traditions, French cuisine, German migration, Italian food, Provel cheese, Gooey butter, St. Paul, Gerber sandwich, Local landmarks, Pizza styles, Truck gardens, Eating culture

SPEAKERS

Suzanne Corbett, Dean Klinkenberg

Suzanne Corbett 00:00

Talk up to these people. You can see some of these these these items and recipes and and and get the stories from them because it’s they love to share what those traditions are because it’s a part of them. It’s it’s part of who you are, and particularly in a world that is has its challenges, as we all know, it gives us comfort to be able to cozy down with a plate full of of food that that kind of defines who we are and what comfort is, and to be able to share it with somebody who might have a totally different background, but it helps bring us together.

Dean Klinkenberg 01:09

Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast. I’m Dean Klinkenberg, and I’ve been exploring the deep history and rich culture of the people and places along America’s greatest river, the Mississippi, since 2007. Join me as I go deep into the characters and places along the river, and occasionally wander into other stories from the Midwest and other rivers. Read the episode show notes and get more information on the Mississippi at MississippiValleyTraveler.com. Let’s get going.

Dean Klinkenberg 01:42

Welcome to episode 85 of the Mississippi Valley Traveler podcast. Well, in this episode today, I have a conversation with food historian and interpreter Suzanne Corbett, who has spent much of her adult life researching the food history in this region and sharing what she has learned through interpretive events at several historic sites in the area. It’s a really fascinating conversation. We cover a lot of time, a lot of time periods, and we we bounce around the around a lot of different cuisines and and culinary trends in the region.

Dean Klinkenberg 02:17

We we begin by just kind of digging into St. Louis food history, going all the way back to indigenous cultures and the early French colonial period. She describes, I guess you would call it a food item, portable soup. Doesn’t exactly sound like it’s something I would want to try today, but was an important food item during that era. And then we talk a little about truck gardens and her own experience growing up on one, we then spend some time kind of bouncing around the various styles of food in St. Louis today, and she really emphasizes the value of talking with restaurant owners about their food specialties. I could not agree more. What a great way to learn about the food history and the cultures of the places that these restaurants represent than just taking a little time to ask a few questions about what you’re eating.

Dean Klinkenberg 03:06

We then move on and talk about some of the mandatory food specialties we have to cover in a show like this, including St. Louis style pizza and Provel cheese, gooey butter cake, the St. Paul sandwich, and the Gerber sandwich, which was new to me. And then we end up with a short discussion of three local restaurant landmarks: Crown Candy Kitchen, Al’s Restaurant, and Ted Drew’s Frozen Custard.

Dean Klinkenberg 03:31

What I really love about this conversation is that it fits so well with the idea of living a curious life and the value of trying something new, especially when it comes to food. Food isn’t just sustenance after all. It’s an important way we connect with past and present. It’s an important way we connect with other people, and the foods that we eat often speak to who we are, to our identity. So be adventurous, be curious, go out there and and try something new.

Dean Klinkenberg 04:01

If you’re interested in a full list of recommendations about what to eat when you’re in St. Louis, I would say go to my guidebook, “Road Tripping the Great River Road,” for the Upper Mississippi. That volume has a full list of places to eat in St. Louis. A couple of those places are no longer open, so like everything else in the guidebook, if you’re intent on going there, if your heart is set on going there, I would call in advance or verify in some way that the restaurant is still open. We’re still in an era where there’s a heck of a lot of turnover in the restaurant industry.

Dean Klinkenberg 04:35

So thanks to all of you who continue to show me some love through Patreon. Your support keeps this podcast rolling along. If you want to join the Patreon community, you can do so for as little as $1 a month, and you get early access to all of the episodes. Go to Patreon.com/DeanKlinkenberg, and there you can join this fabulous world. Patreon, not your thing, well, buy me a coffee. Go to mississipivalleytraveler.com/podcast, and there you’ll find a link to support my caffeine habit. At that same link, mississippivalleytraveler.com/podcast, you’ll find a listing of all 84 previous episodes. You can binge listen, or you can listen to one here, listen to one there for driving around the Great River Road, or just looking to kill some time. There’s some great topics that we’ve covered in the past, so go there, mississippivalleytraveler.com/podcast, and that’s where you’ll also find the show notes.

Dean Klinkenberg 05:39

Click on an individual episode, and that will take you to the show notes. All right, then let’s get on to the interview and learn about St. Louis food.

Dean Klinkenberg 06:00

Suzanne Corbett is an award-winning writer, culinary teacher, and food historian whose work has appeared in local and national publications. She’s the author of “The Gilded Table: Recipes and Table Traditions from the Campbell House” as well as “Push Carts and Stalls: The Soulard Market History Cookbook” and as a Telly Award winner, producer, writer of the documentary short “Vintage Missouri: 200 Years of Missouri Wine.” Since 1999, she’s also served as a living history foodways interpreter and research food historian with the National Parks at the Jefferson National Expansion Memorial, which is now called Gateway Arch National Park. Suzanne, welcome to the podcast.

Suzanne Corbett 06:43

Well, thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. So, so what are you hungry for today? That’s the big question.

Dean Klinkenberg 06:51

Well, first question is like, did I get anything wrong with that bio? Is there anything you want to add to that or expand on? Or

Suzanne Corbett 06:58

Well, my goodness, let me see. I, you know, I’ve written several books. I love the work with my history that that that springs from my first love, which was teaching foods, teaching the culinary arts. I started as an adjunct with Saint Louis Community College, which is actually how I got into food history, because I had a curator from Jefferson Barracks Historic Sites many years ago that took one of my cooking classes and said, “You know, if you could come up with a way to do some kind of a historical program fitted into our Civil War weekend. That would be great.” And those were the days where you didn’t have a lot of restrictions and things, so people could have bake sales and stuff. And she said, if you wanted to make anything and sell it, you can. It’s fine. You could keep the money. And by the way, if you came in a costume, you could go to the ladies’ tea for free. Oh my goodness! Yes. So I put myself together what I thought at the time was an 1850s, 1860s working girls costume, and I started doing historical breads.

Suzanne Corbett 08:25

Or at the time, we were considered, or people like myself were just considered itinerant historians and itinerant bakers. Now we’re artisan bakers, which is kind of fun thing to put your arms around. But back in those days, food historians really weren’t thought a whole lot of, particularly those who did living history. So it was kind of an interesting juxtapositioning from from going to the field in living history into the academic world, and it took a while to figure out just how the two of us could live together and feed on and and support each other’s work. And after 30 years, or actually 40 years now, I’m very happy to say that it’s become a recognized field, and it’s just complements so many different events and programming because food and food history, everyone has their own personal food history. You have maybe special memories of what your mother did or your grandma or this or that, but it’s a way that you can connect the past in the present and then turn that around and help preserve all of that, those interesting social, cultural aspects for the future, because so much of that is tied to what was on the table, and that’s what I have a lot of fun with.

Suzanne Corbett 09:53

I just completed for Ulysses S. Grant National Historic Site. Six months, no, I guess more like eight months’ worth of supportive work to celebrate Julia Dent Grant’s 200th birthday, her bicentennial. And last week we did an event that was partnered with Grant’s Farm, which is not to be confused with the historic site, which is White Haven, which was the plantation farm that the Dents and eventually Ulysses would would live on with Julia for a short time while he was trying to figure out if he could be a farmer, at which he failed at, there were a lot of reasons for that, but eventually it did come into his his own ownership, which unfortunately he lost, and it had to be well there’s all kinds of social debt things that went on, and he just had some very hard economic times. Well, after the presidency, but anyway, we were celebrating the joys of what the farm table was, the things that grew there, the histories, and and just how the area grew based on what was available food wise and how things expanded in St. Louis County beyond that. So it was kind of a fun thing to create a special farm-to-table dinner, and then we did Hardscrabble tours. Which, by the way, do you know what Hardscrabble was?

Dean Klinkenberg 11:34

No, tell me about. I should.

Suzanne Corbett 11:35

It’s going to be a trivia thing.

Dean Klinkenberg 11:37

I didn’t realize I was going to be put on the spot.

Suzanne Corbett 11:39

No, no, no, no, no! Hardscrabble was the log cabin that Grant built himself, that he and Julia lived in for roughly about three months. His father-in-law gave him some land, and he wanted to build his own house. Julia wasn’t that happy with it because she was more accustomed to the finer things in life. When in her memoir, she talks about the great china, you know, the the white china with the gold rim and cut glass and things of that nature. That was at her home in White Haven. Some of the vegetables and things like that. But anyway, they were able to get out of White Haven, they were able to get out of Hardscrabble within about three months because her mother passed away, and her father asked her to, if they wouldn’t come back and return to White Haven to live. Which is exactly what they did.

Suzanne Corbett 12:37

Well, to make a long story maybe a little bit shorter. Hardscrabble, the cabin, would eventually be put on display at the 1904 World’s Fair by the Blanke Tea and Coffee Company, and they used it as a promotional thing, so people could come and have coffee and tea and and view the tour the place that Ulysses S. Grant actually built, and after the fair, August the Busch family purchased the cabin and would eventually move it to the site where it is now at Grant’s farm down in South St. Louis County. So anyway, I did programming at Hardscrabble all this this past weekend, where I was shucking corn and and making pickles because that was a favorite of Ulysses, and looking at all the different kinds of produce and things that the farm grew, and there are so many people that came through, and just not little kids, but adults that just just don’t realize what goes in to growing these vegetables, or even what they look like. You know, it’s all in a can, or it’s pre-popped, or it’s packaged, or you just don’t think about it. A pumpkin pie is something that is already pre-made, and it just you throw it in the oven or you go to the baker.

Dean Klinkenberg 14:06

It comes off the pumpkin pie bush, doesn’t it?

Suzanne Corbett 14:08

It does sort of. Well, it’s actually a vine, but we won’t split hairs there. How about that? But anyway, that’s a long story to say that I just enjoy interpreting the old food ways because so many of them are at risk of being lost, and these are one way to take those types of skills that we once all had, which were considered life skills, and now they’re kind of like specialty hobby things that you do. So it’s it’s really a very satisfying vocation. It’s it’s an interesting part of history. As I said before, that everyone can kind of put their arms around because we all have our own food history that resonates with us.

Dean Klinkenberg 15:09

And you know, for those of us who have you know family history that goes back even two or three generations in this country, almost all of us you know go back to farm families at some point. So you know, we’re not that removed from the tradition, or you know, from that kind of work. Although, you’d think we’re you know on a completely different planet with the way some of the some of the things we know about farming and where food comes from these days.

Suzanne Corbett 15:33

True.

Dean Klinkenberg 15:35

I there’s so many things we can talk about. I hope we’ll see how much time we have to get through some of these, but because history is really in your sweet spot. Like one of the things I’m always curious about, I’m not a St. Louis native, but I’ve been here for 38 years, so I’m almost a native.

Suzanne Corbett 15:53

We’ll claim you?

Dean Klinkenberg 15:54

Yeah, I love it here. Like, but even in that time I’ve been here, I feel like the food scene has changed dramatically, but one of the things that I know I love about travel is getting a sense of the local food traditions, trying local specialties, and it’s not just a St. Louis thing. But traveling around a lot of places, especially in the Midwest, it’s sometimes hard to figure out what the food history is in a local community, so I’m just sort of curious, like, you know, what are some of the forces or the cuisines that have shaped St. Louis food over over this, you know, since its its history?

Suzanne Corbett 16:36

Well, you’ve got to start with the founding, and if you really want to go back further, then you have to start with the original indigenous people because they were hunters, they were gatherers, they foraged and and taught many of the people that came here and settled. With the beginning with the voyagers, the French, the different types of food that was available, things that you may not really put it your arms around like swamp weed. There’s there’s a it kind of looks like that it has it has seeds that kind of resemble like a quinoa, and there’s other types of things that are out to the wild melons and variety of different things that are out to the paw paws and what have you. But also the game that was kind of such an abundance that Europeans remember game reserves were for the aristocracy, and you just didn’t have the the accessibility of having that bountiful meat supply and and also the fish and things that are well that were available.

Suzanne Corbett 17:46

So when you start looking at some of the old recipes, particularly from the French, you see this this bounty of of of culinary expertise that they have endowed the local St. Louis traditions with, because unlike many of the other types of ethnic groups that came in here, the colonial ethnic groups, the French were the first to really embrace the natural indigenous foods that were around. There, there was a comment by one historian that talked about how even the most humblest of cooks had an expertise on their culinary abilities. They knew how to cook. They were renowned for it, one of the the French scout, Sacagawea’s husband, whose name escapes me at this particular time. I’ll think of it later, but he was French, and when he was traveling with Lewis and Clark, one of the notations that Clark made in his diary was that that he made wonderful boudin, buffalo boudin. He was able to make those sausages using the intestinal casings to to encase the the sausage. So whenever they were able to do things like that they they were eating very well, you know, providing they could get their game and stuff, which was a lot better than when the hard times came when they were reduced to living off of things like what they called portable soup, which was sort of like a forerunner of bouillon, like a bouillon cube, they would boil beef bones and other bones down until it got into that gelatinous jelly kind of a substance. Well, have you ever made gravy, Dean, where you put it in the refrigerator and you’ve got this this stuff that like congeals on the top of it.

Dean Klinkenberg 20:02

Right.

Suzanne Corbett 20:03

Well, if you keep cooking that out and you let it dry out it almost looks like solenoid. So that’s what congeals, what what portable soup is this congealed, dry, really intense protein, you know, piece that you can then use and throw into water and and reconstitute and throw whatever it is that you can can forage into it to make it into a soup. Yum yum. yum

Dean Klinkenberg 20:32

Yum, yum. Boy, sounds appetizing.

Suzanne Corbett 20:34

Oh, doesn’t it?

Dean Klinkenberg 20:36

It probably paired well with hardtack.

Suzanne Corbett 20:38

That’s true. That is true. Although hardtack, you have to go a little bit further down the way there. So, and then you have to get into the Cracker Castle and some of those things that are in St. Louis, where they made a lot of their. That guy made a lot of money selling crackers to the army. They a lot of noted quite quite a bit of documentation of how these crackers were, you know, sitting on the arsenal levees down by where the arsenal was across the street from Anheuser Busch. That was the old aeronautical charts and information center, DMAAC. Our the I think they call it interspatial or some kind of something that just moved to the Ferguson Florissant area that just rebuilt that. I’m not sure if they’re completely moved yet, but anyway, those were some of the staging spots where you could ship some of this stuff out, along with Jefferson Barracks, a little bit further south along the river. Those poor things-they they weren’t so bad when they’re freshly baked, but when they sit around for a few months, they’re not so good. They’re not so good. But you could crack them, and you can break them up, and do other things with them. And and there’s notations about putting them in coffee to make the to to help filter the coffee, among other things. There’s just all kinds of outrageous things that you say about them. You know, but fry them in a little bit of fat back, and I guess if you’re starving, it tastes pretty good.

Dean Klinkenberg 22:25

And they were probably starving pretty regularly. So.

Suzanne Corbett 22:28

Well, depends on what side, particularly what’s what side you were fighting on.

Dean Klinkenberg 22:32

Yeah. So, how did the food scene change with the coming of America then, as St. Louis became part of America through the 1800s, we had more immigrants moving in. The French became kind of a afternote in some in some respect.

Suzanne Corbett 22:54

Well, you you know you went from French to Spanish to the Americans that that would come over, so you’ve got the influx of Scot Irish, and of course we’ve got that huge migration of Germans that came in here in the 1840s and 50s, all looking for a better way. And thank God they brought their breweries and a lot of the wonderful things with them, they brought the what was called what was always considered very respected vocation, which was gardening with them. That’s what you see a lot of old references of truck gardens, and truck gardens in the 19th century didn’t refer to the truck with the four wheels on it. Truck means of becomes a verb, not a noun. So it’s trucking, taking things to market. So you’ll see references of truck gardens.

Suzanne Corbett 23:57

When I grew up, I was raised on a truck garden, but I never really realized the term “truck garden” would go back over 100 years from when I was born on the truck farm. That it meant something completely different. I just thought it meant Daddy’s truck with just taking stuff to Soulard or to the local IGA stores and independent grocers and things of that nature, but it’s all changed through time in every ethnic group, and it’s still true today. Brings their culinary heritage with them because once again, it’s familiar. It’s it. It gives you a sense of place. It’s the ultimate cultural terroir. Terroir, I’m sure you’re familiar with that. With when it comes to wine, but I think it’s also very important to to associate that to. as an umbrella example or explanation for for foodways of an area, because it really defines the culture of who they are, who who their descendants define themselves that are feel who they are, or what they’re going to become, based on where they came from.

Suzanne Corbett 25:27

Like right now, everybody’s going crazy for Oktoberfest, which is kind of a fascinating concept, particularly since today Oktoberfest has been reduced to a lot of beer and bratwurst, which is good. I like my beer. I like my bratwurst. I’m half German, yes, but there’s so much more to great German cuisine. And you go back to the old restaurants from either the the 20th century, things like the Bavarian Inn, Schneidhorst was one of the last ones that had connections. But but there were many many German restaurants. There’s a couple of places that have German food on the menu now, but things change.

Suzanne Corbett 26:46

Trends change, and I feel that when you go into a community and a new group comes in and joins that community and brings their foodways with them, it it adds to the smorgasboard of of the the food ways that are already there, but it’s it’s just more choice and like with anything, it’s it’s going to be trendy. Right now, you’re you’re you’re seeing many subdivisions of what they call Mediterranean food. Well, you’ll see Jordanian, you’ll see Persian, Iranian, you’ll see a variety. I mean, Tunisian, all kinds of different sub chapters of subdivisions of like the overall.

Suzanne Corbett 27:18

A great example of of that was Italian food, we just thought, oh, it’s Italian food. Just but you started breaking it out into Northern Italian, Southern Italian, and you start breaking that down a little bit further, and it’s just fascinating all the flavors and the stories that go with the recipes. And St. Louis is has a rich Italian history. We’re considered that the St. Louis Hill is is considered one of the last, if not the last, little Italy in the United States. In fact, there was a great little documentary that was produced just a few years ago, and it it it kind of outlines some of these items that talk about how you have this ghetto of of ethnic people that are just putting their arms around a community and becoming very self-sufficient. You know, they’re they’re going out in the community.

Suzanne Corbett 28:28

They’re they’re embracing and every and people are coming to know more about them. But it’s you you see this in many of those little small pockets of different ethnic groups. There, there was what we used to call Chinatown, where there were great Chinese restaurants, markets, things of that nature. A lot of markets and Chinese-owned businesses. So you see that all across the area. You you start going back into history, and you’ll you’ll see where all of these things are.

Dean Klinkenberg 29:08

Let’s dig into The the Hill a little bit too, because I you’re talking again. You kind of referenced how the the subdivision and different cuisines and the Italians who came to live on the hill were mostly from Sicily, I think, right?

Suzanne Corbett 29:22

Well, I think well, they were a lot of places. Many came from Sicily. There are those that are Neapolitan. Not a great deal, you know. It’s it’s it’s a nice mix. Many of them came to work at the fair, the World’s Fair, to help construct it. You have a lot of Sicilians, but there’s other people too that have come along the ways, and they’ve all brought their particular styles with them. Some of the best restaurants on on The Hill. I mean, they’re right at the first and second generation. That are still working there, and it’s it’s marvelous. Like Dominic’s, a great example of fine cuisine, and and Gito’s, Adriana’s, a great little sandwich shop. They all have great stories and great family histories, and they have their own way of doing their particular types of recipes. It might be called something different in a village, maybe a few miles away from where their people came from. A great example of that is like the mixed olive salad. There’s there’s different versions of that in different ways on on how to do it, and there’s a the Sicilians would call the schiacciate, and that’s how what I learned. But I said it to somebody, and they went, “Oh, you mean so and so? It’s like, “Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.”

Suzanne Corbett 30:59

Well, I’ve been was very blessed to have a friend, Lynne Rossetto Kasper from the Splendid Table, who started that. She and I, I met her many years ago at an international association of culinary professionals when it was here in St. Louis, and she was doing the Italian food history thing at the time, and I was doing my American, you know, Americana focus, and we we just were kindred spirits and very supportive, and and and she had wonderful stories about how these recipes would just would be just minor tweaks in different parts of Italy, and you might go someplace else in one little town, and they’ll have something that nobody else anywhere else knows anything about. So it’s just it’s just fascinating to keep digging through these things, and if you’re fortunate enough to have a great little place like The Hill or Little Sarajevo, what we have here, some some great Mediterranean Turkish restaurants, talk up to these people. You can see some of these these these items and recipes and and and get the stories from them because it’s they love to share what those traditions are because it’s a part of them.

Dean Klinkenberg 32:35

Part of their identity.

Suzanne Corbett 32:36

It’s it’s part of who you are.

Dean Klinkenberg 32:37

Right.

Suzanne Corbett 32:38

And particularly in a world that is has its challenges, as we all know. It gives us comfort to be able to cozy down with a plate full of of food that that kind of defines who we are and what comfort is, and to be able to share it with somebody who might have a totally different background, but it helps bring us together.

Dean Klinkenberg 33:07

Yeah, absolutely. I’m curious. A lot of food traditions do change over time, and I guess on The Hill, there’s been a lot of steadiness. You know, there’s been a lot of continuity, in some of the restaurants, at least, and the and the food that’s served, if if somebody was coming into town now and wanted to go to The Hill, and they wanted to go to a place that offered, or they wanted to try a particular dish that kind of spoke to the uniqueness of the the people who came to St. Louis, what would you what would you point them to?

Suzanne Corbett 33:39

Well, first I’d have to ask, what are you hungry for? How much money you got to spend? I think when anybody comes to town and they’re they’re looking for a place, you know, I get that question all the time. What is your favorite restaurant? Where would you like to go? Where would you? You know, it’s like depends on what I’m hungry for, really. But somebody new who’s coming in, or even somebody who’s lived here in St. Louis all their lives, get out in the car and start start roaming around and checking out what where these places are. Look at the menus, find a food writer that you might like, might have a similar palate, because it all boils down to really what you like and what you’re hungry for, and to try to find a place that that goes beyond the Americanized steak and potatoes, but at this point, I have noticed that there are trends.

Suzanne Corbett 33:39

Many of the famous recipes, like cashew chicken, a great example. Mr. Leong down in Springfield when he was starting to do that recipe, or when he started to open his his restaurant, he needed to have something that was familiar with people, because you’re not going to be successful if people don’t come through the door. Even if your food’s a little bit too weird for them, it’s like I don’t know. It’s it’s I don’t you know, like I have a brother that he’s meat and potatoes. He doesn’t eat anything green, so it’s it’s it’s true. It’s true. But so you have to figure out what can I give people that will get them to like what I’m doing and just kind of like I hate to use the analogy, but spoon feed them a little bit on something a little bit different, but still has the base of of the the food or the cuisine that you’re trying to present to them. Well, that cashew chicken worked out just fine because he added fried chicken bits to the top of it, you know, along with the cashews and bingo, it was a big hit. It was like people were familiar with oh oh that’s fried chicken oh well I guess I can try that and bingo it’s just not very popular very very popular you’ll see that with Italian food you’ll see people talk about St. Louis Italian. You won’t see it anywhere else except St. Louis. They say so there you have it. But it’s a different style. It’s been Americanized. A lot of ethnic foods were Americanized for the American palate because you you got to sell it. If you can’t sell it, you’re you know you’re in trouble.

Dean Klinkenberg 34:45

Right, and sometimes they couldn’t always get the same ingredients they get they had back in the old country, anyway. So they had to adapt some of the recipes when they came here.

Suzanne Corbett 36:48

Yeah, that’s true. But today, that’s not so much. I mean, you can still, but people are more food adventurous now. You know, thanks to all of the food shows and the the availability, and and and that’s a big deal is the availability, I mean one of the biggest things that moved foodways or or what we found at our table forward. It began with the railroad because you could bring food across the countries that you you you didn’t have you were no longer limited to seasonal things, and then with air transport and things like that. I mean, the wonder of the age in the 1980s was the kiwi. Oh my God! Look at that thing. I mean, for for a decade, I think that was the decade that everything had sliced kiwi on everything. It was fascinating.

Dean Klinkenberg 37:42

Right. Maybe now it’s avocados. Like I don’t remember avocados being quite so ubiquitous 20 years ago. Maybe they were, and I didn’t notice. But

Suzanne Corbett 37:49

Well, you know, well, avocados were always there. They were grown in in California, the Western. We had it, but it wasn’t the thing. Now they put them on everything, and and I’m going to say this. You probably get letters about it, but it’s like avocado on toast, and unless there’s something else with it, like bacon and lettuce, and or you know chicken or something.

Dean Klinkenberg 38:15

Feta or something.

Suzanne Corbett 38:16

Yeah, or yeah, you know, just have avocado toast for breakfast. No, I’d I’d rather have my avocado reserved for my guacamole. Thank you.

Dean Klinkenberg 38:26

Yes, it’s okay. Like we make a couple couple of things that get get a reaction to folks. People are very passionate about their food and the the food they enjoy, and I’m not afraid of you know challenging some of that. And in St. Louis, we have some unique foods, not all of which I’m crazy about. But can we? Let’s touch on this.

Suzanne Corbett 38:50

Do you like our pizza?

Dean Klinkenberg 38:52

I don’t like Provel. There, I’ll be there goes my, you know, I’ll be kicked out of my neighborhood now. I like the cracker thin crust. I don’t mind that at all. I don’t really like a sweet tomato sauce. I like it, you know, a little more savory, a little more herby, and or or spicy. But I’m not a fan of Provel.

Suzanne Corbett 39:11

Not a fan of Provel. Well, it’s it’s one of those acquired tastes, I guess. I grew up with it, so I like my Provel. But also, I enjoy a whole milk mozzarella. Love that. What is it, burrata now? It seems like that’s the big thing now. I’ve never been quite a fan because it just doesn’t seem like it’s cooked long enough for me. You know, it’s like I just, you know, it’s just my own personal thing. But there are just so many different ways to do and to market it. I mean, remember when pizza suddenly became flatbreads and they could add an extra buck or two to the bill. For it, yeah, I say it’s nothing but pizza. You know that’s free land. You know that’s freestyle. You know you stretch it out a little bit further.

Dean Klinkenberg 40:11

Right. And the Stouffer’s had the French bread pizzas in the frozen food section. With you know there there were lots of different ways of doing this. That seemed good when I had not much money and I didn’t have a lot of experience eating different food. But probably I don’t need to go back to that now. But you know, pizza is great because I just so many different ways to do pizza, and I’m that’s one thing I think that’s changed a lot in St. Louis since I moved here. It seemed like when I got here in the late ’80s, there was not a lot of variety for the pizza places, and it was mostly chains. Yeah, there were a couple of Talayna’s was one of my favorite places to go because it was a little bit different from the standard chain food or chain pizza places. But now there’s pizza all over the place.

Suzanne Corbett 40:59

Well, it’s it’s mainstream, but think about all the things that have gone mainstream, just in just ingredients alone, chipotle for one, wasabi. That was weird stuff, and well, not not that long ago, you had to go to a specialty store to get it now. It’s an ingredient in mayonnaise and ketchup and stuff. You you know that Heinz is is doing or or whatever. It’s something that you would have never expected a few years ago.

Suzanne Corbett 41:35

When I first started teaching cooking, I had a whole list of great little ethnic groceries that I would send people to from you know a little Chinese place that was up on 14th Street down downtown back in the day. There was a little grocery that was oh not too far from Big Bend and Skinker, that had some of the most wonderful Greek items. You could actually get real Greek honey there, so it was part of the fun to go out and find this stuff to make a real Greek baklava with that kind of honey, and so on and so forth, yeah, it was fun. Yeah, well, it was fun, and and I think people are now demand more variety in their average grocery store, and just the just what goes on at the grocery store has changed. I mean, you go into the meat department, you’re not going to see great big pieces of roast like you your mother had. You don’t see too many whole chickens unless they’ve already been cooked on a rotisserie. You know, you’ve got your rotisserie chicken. If you hand somebody a raw chicken and say cut that up for and then fry it, they wouldn’t know where to begin with it.

Dean Klinkenberg 43:09

I can do it for the record.

Suzanne Corbett 43:10

Well, well, I can too. And and in fact, when I learned, I was about 10 years old. My mother was at work, and I was going to treat her to making dinner. And I called her and I said, “I’ve got the wings and the legs off. What do I do with the rest of it?” You know, it was kind of hard for her to talk me through it when she’s at work and I was trying.

Dean Klinkenberg 43:32

At home with a big knife in your hand, right?

Suzanne Corbett 43:34

Yeah, yeah. Although those were the days when they would hand you your mothers would hand you a paring knife, and this is one thing that I always tell my students: put the paring knife down because they were afraid you’re going to hurt yourself. It’s okay to pick up the chef knife and do something. Knife skills, but these are all things that technique has changed. You know, the you look at old books, old cookbooks from the 18th, 19th century, and there is a base assumption that you know how to do a particular thing. So they could give you, say, a recipe for bread in the “Gilded Table” that I wrote for the Campbell House, there was an 1830 or 1840-ish dated recipe that said for everyday bread – flour, water, yeast, mix, bake. Well, yeah, I can figure that out, but most people couldn’t. But there’s that assumption of you have so many life skills to be able to do A, B, or C.

Dean Klinkenberg 44:59

Yeah, if you had a list of ingredients, you could figure out the proportions.

Suzanne Corbett 45:03

Yeah, and you have to figure out what that list of ingredients actually was. You know, the old egg, the size of a hen’s egg. Well, how big? You know, how big is a hen’s egg compared to a goose egg, or this or that, or a teacupful of this or that, or maybe a gill of this, and you know all these things change, and you figure it out. You know, I am waiting for historians maybe 150 years from now to look at cookbooks and try to figure out what the heck a stick of butter is. You know, I’m waiting for that.

Dean Klinkenberg 45:42

Yeah, that day will come, I’m sure.

Dean Klinkenberg 45:45

Oh, I’m sure they will. You know, but there’s enough documentation now. I think. But you know, we’re we’re at risk of losing so many of these great recipes and things because we’re going digital.

Dean Klinkenberg 46:00

Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting myself. Just wanted to remind you that if you’d like to know more about the Mississippi River, check out my books. I write the Mississippi Valley Traveler guide books for people who want to get to know the Mississippi better. I also wrote “The Wild Mississippi,” a guide that goes deep into the complex ecosystems supported by the Mississippi, the plant and animal life that depends on them, and where you can go to experience it all. If you like fiction, check out my Frank Dodge mystery series. Each book is set in places along the Mississippi River. My newest book is a travel memoir called “Better Safe Than Sorry: Slowboats, Chicken Busses, and the Radical Choice to Trust the World.” The book explores a simple question: What happens when you stop asking “What if something goes wrong?” and start asking “What if everything goes right?” Find out more at deanklinkenberg.com/bettersafethansorry.

Dean Klinkenberg 47:01

So you’ve you’ve looked at a lot of say historic recipes. Is there is there something that stands out in your mind? Is something we should be making more often again, or that should come back?

Suzanne Corbett 47:12

Everybody should know how to make pie. Make a good crust because you can do so much with it. You can fill it with savory or something sweet. You can make makeshift cookies out of it. You know, if you can master how to make a pie crust and know what to do with it, you know how to fill it or whatever. I think that that you can go a long way. You can be very satisfying, very very satisfying, and it’s easy. It’s it’s kind of foolproof, really. I’m not saying that you can’t mess it up because you can. But it’s you really got to work at it. It’s it’s you know it’s it’s not like it’s it well it’s forgiving. Let’s put it that way. Those are one of those recipes. One of those techniques that she mastered-that’s that’s very forgiving, you know.

Dean Klinkenberg 48:08

Yeah.

Suzanne Corbett 48:09

It’s like a biscuit.

Dean Klinkenberg 48:11

My mother excelled at making pies. Like that was she very much, you know. That was probably the one thing that she did by best, you know, the best, and she did it exceptionally throughout her life. And fortunately, I have two sisters who learned from my mom how to make pies. So we still have that that skill in the family. Were there flavors of pies maybe in the 19th century that we might not recognize today, or or is it pretty similar?

Suzanne Corbett 48:36

It’s it’s fairly similar. I think you’re seeing a lot more savory pies, you know, that that go through. I mean, once again, it’s it’s all trends. It is like bread pudding. That’s a good example. Some of the younger chefs, and you go into some of the the restaurants today, and and they’re doing a a savory bread pudding with this and that and all this, and it’s it’s set in front of me, and I look at it and I say, “My God, that’s not bread pudding; it’s dressing.” That’s what it is. Or unless you’re from the, you know, well, I’m got that southern twist to this because they do dressing, northerners do stuffing, but nonetheless, it’s dressing, it’s bread dressing, you know, and it’s just kind of fascinating how they’ll take something that maybe your mother did or something, and they’ve they’ve recreated it and put it out there as something new wave or farm to table stuff like that.

Dean Klinkenberg 49:53

Oh yeah, certainly it would be new to a lot of palates today anyway.

Suzanne Corbett 49:56

It could yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg 49:58

Yeah.

Suzanne Corbett 49:58

You know and in fact the term “farm to table” always used to amuse me, because if you grew up on a truck farm or any kind of farm situation where you’re raising food, it’s like, of course it’s farm to table. Where else do you think you’re going to put it? You know, come on. But you know, it’s a marketable, it’s a trendy thing. You know, but it gets people thinking, and that’s great.

Dean Klinkenberg 50:23

Right.

Suzanne Corbett 50:23

It’s like, where did it come from?

Dean Klinkenberg 50:25

Which is good for us to be thinking about that. So.

Suzanne Corbett 50:28

Yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg 50:29

So, what what would be on your list of some of the uniquely St. Louis foods?

Suzanne Corbett 50:36

Well, of course, you you have to always talk about the gooey butter, and and even that has changed through the last few decades. It’s gone from something that’s got more of like a danish dough with a little bit of a gooey crust to something with it, which is a cookie, a cookie foundation with a lot of goo on top of it, which I like a lot. Those are great, great things. I love a good St. Paul sandwich.

Dean Klinkenberg 51:11

Yeah, where’s your favorite spot for that?

Suzanne Corbett 51:14

Oh, I don’t know. Wherever I can find one. There’s used to be a little Chinese dive down on Gravois, just oh, about a about a mile or so from the St. Louis border, is that’s where I found them. Love that, and of course you know the you always have to talk about the toasted ravioli and such, but there, there, there’s just so much good food here. I mean, we all have our signature foods, no matter where you go. You know, Cincinnati’s got their chili. Chicago’s got their deep dish pizza. You know, which is upside down pizza. You know, you either love it or you think it’s upside down slop. It just depends, you know.

Dean Klinkenberg 52:02

Right.

Suzanne Corbett 52:03

It’s it’s all again. It’s all in what you like, what all you enjoy, what all you embrace. Yeah. So.

Dean Klinkenberg 52:13

You mentioned in one of your books, you mentioned the Gerber sandwich. Is that right?

Suzanne Corbett 52:18

Yeah, Gerbers are good.

Dean Klinkenberg 52:20

What’s that? Tell me about that.

Suzanne Corbett 52:22

A Gerber sandwich, one of the best ones, and I then then where it really came from was was oh, I’m I’m I’m I’m going blank here. Oh, I’ll think of it in just a second. But anyway, a Gerber sandwich is garlic bread, French bread, with thinly sliced ham. Really wonderful sliced ham, covered in Provel, in Provel, and then it’s toasted, and then you bring it out, and you sprinkle it with a little bit of paprika, and that’s a Gerber sandwich. And you have dill pickles and pepperoncinis on the side. And I’m trying to, I, I am just, I, I’m brain dead today on just what that is, I can I can still see the the little kid when it started. It was they they dressed him up as a spokesperson who now owns it. Who’s a big guy with tattoos, but his name was Brock. Ruma’s. Ruma’s Deli. That was it, Ruma’s Deli.

Dean Klinkenberg 53:36

All right.

Suzanne Corbett 53:37

Ruma’s Deli. Yeah, in fact, they, some of the Ruma’s lived up the street from me.

Dean Klinkenberg 53:47

So you’re not going to find that everywhere around town.

Suzanne Corbett 53:50

I’m sorry.

Dean Klinkenberg 53:51

You’re not going to find that in any place around town. I don’t, I don’t imagine Adriana’s would even have that.

Suzanne Corbett 53:57

Well, you know, different places have different names for it. Viviano’s Festa Italiano has their version of it. I can’t recall what the name of it is, but it’s basically a Gerber, but they call it something else. I think it’s a Mangia Bene, maybe. All right, it could be a Mangia Bene. Yeah, but they kinds of things, and and and then of course you’ve got to have something sweet to go with it. So then you have to think about like maybe, oh, it well, it would be Chocolate Chocolate Chocolate because they’ve got Bissinger’s also, but they’ve got the original formulas for the Mavrakos Candies, which they used to have like a coconut crescent that they did, that was fantastic, and their pecan bird. Oh my gosh!

Dean Klinkenberg 54:55

Gonna make me hungry here again, Suzanne.

Suzanne Corbett 54:56

Well, that that that’s how we started this whole interview, was “What you hungry for?” So after all of this time, so what you hungry for, Dean?

Dean Klinkenberg 55:06

Well, I’m hungry for just about everything. Like I’m ready to go back to The Hill and grab a good Italian sandwich at Adriana’s. I kind of feel like we need to take a step back for just a second, though, because you mentioned the St. Paul sandwich, but I got a lot of people who listen who don’t know anything about St. Louis or what that sandwich might be. So, can can you just explain like quickly what the St. Paul sandwich is?

Suzanne Corbett 55:29

The St. Paul sandwich is, and and it was brought in by like a a Chinese chop suey fried rice giant. The guy was from St. Paul, it is egg foo young, egg foo young patties on white bread. You know the the like the wonder bread kind of white bread with a little bit of mayonnaise, lettuce, tomato. Some people will throw pickle on them, but usually just lettuce, tomato, and egg foo young white bread, and there you go.

Dean Klinkenberg 56:01

Yeah, and it’s really good.

Suzanne Corbett 56:04

It’s really good.

Dean Klinkenberg 56:05

A little dubious, but the first time I tried one, but they’re delicious.

Suzanne Corbett 56:08

It’s it’s really good. I mean, it’s it it holds its own with like another great sandwich in town is Gioia’s Hot Salami. You can’t go wrong with that. And if you want an interesting burger, one of the best burgers in town that’s gotten national recognition is the burgers from the Iowa Buffet, which is delightfully little sleazy dive bar. It’s really not sleazy, but some people, you know, but it’s it’s a dive bar and it’s wonderful. I knew the the lady who who had it. She passed on. It was Carolyn, and in fact, she was in the the St. Louis Culinary Society with me, and her daughters are continuing the operation. But but they have like a vintage grill that they grill these on, and I tell you, it makes a big difference. It just there’s nothing like them.

Dean Klinkenberg 57:05

Yeah, they are good. Yeah, I think people can yeah maybe get scared off a little bit because it’s in a part of the city that a lot of folks, especially out the county, no offense, would be afraid to go to. But yeah, it’s a it’s a good place. Those burgers are delicious. I love the O’Connell’s too, and we’re about to lose them, so I.

Suzanne Corbett 57:21

I know. I was just there the other day and got a hamburger.

Dean Klinkenberg 57:25

Yeah, I’m going to miss that.

Suzanne Corbett 57:27

So be there before it it all goes away.

Dean Klinkenberg 57:31

I’ll go back again. So we’ve got a little bit of time, maybe, but you never know. Like you know, they’re going to try to hang on till St. Patrick’s Day. We’ll see whether or not they make it.

Suzanne Corbett 57:39

Yeah, we’ll see where we’re at with all of that. Well, that’s like with Miss Sherry’s. That was one of the last, the last cafeteria in St. Louis. You know, real cafeteria where you had oh, dozens of choices.

Dean Klinkenberg 57:52

Yeah. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to touch on a couple of like older restaurants too. The places that have withstood the the time and there there are a few of these. I’m just kind of wondering quick thoughts from you. Crown Candy Kitchen. What do you like about Crown Candy?

Suzanne Corbett 58:11

Well, what’s not like to what’s not like what is not there to like about Crown Candy? Ice cream, all of that, you know, the claim to fame since man versus food, and they got their bacon sandwich, their killer BLT out up there, but but it’s great. I mean, they they have consistent, great, what I consider kind of like diner food with wonderful ice cream. You want some great chili and tamales? Go in there. They’re using Edmond’s chili and tamales, which is a St. Louis staple here. You can go there and grab that. Yeah, they’ve got it’s a good sandwich. It’s a great place to go. If you haven’t been, you can’t call yourself a St. Louisan.

Dean Klinkenberg 59:04

I’ve been there many times myself.

Suzanne Corbett 59:06

Oh, very good.

Dean Klinkenberg 59:06

I love it. Love it. What about Al’s restaurant?

Suzanne Corbett 59:10

I love Al’s too. That that’s been around. I think this is maybe their hundred and first year. Yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg 59:17

1920s. Yeah.

Suzanne Corbett 59:19

Yeah, and it’s in either ’25 or ’26. I think they were a year or two older than Kemoll’s, and Kemoll’s unfortunately did not survive the pandemic like so many others. And but Al’s is still going, and what’s great about Al’s that if it’s in the same spot where it’s been since it opened, and it’s in an old what was a sugar warehouse in the 19th century, and it became a bar later on, and Al’s mother and father then then there really was an Al, had bought the place. He was a soda truck driver, I believe it was the story. Maybe had beer too. I can’t remember exactly, but he was a delivery guy, a beverage guy delivering stuff. And his wife was running it, and was running the bar, and she decided, well, maybe I could make a few extra dollars selling sandwiches to the guys that are working on the levee. So she started selling egg sandwiches, and and it kind of took off from there. But it became the high tone place once there was a fire next door, part of the building dropped on them, which gave them a chance to update it. And by this time, the son was taking it over and turned it from a you know the eggs the egg sandwich saloon into the very highbrow steakhouse that it became. I mean, it it was the place where everybody went. Even Frank Sinatra came there one night.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:01:07

Yeah.

Suzanne Corbett 1:01:08

And I’m sure you’ve heard the story where he came in and sat down and ordered two steaks, and one was for him, and the other one was for his dog that was waiting in the car. And Al told him, “No, bring that dog in here,” and he did. And they sat in the corner, and him and this dog had their steaks, and they have a picture to prove it. And it’s you know culinary stories, lore. It’s just wonderful. I love stories like that.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:01:37

I love that place because of the experience of eating there too. There’s no menu. Yeah, they bring out a tray with the cuts of meat that are available that day, and you choose the meat you want. It’s not quite like going to Red Lobster where you point at the lobster you want to have boiled, but you don’t get to pick your cow, but you do get to pick your slice of your cut. It was a really fun experience and the food was delicious. .

Suzanne Corbett 1:02:04

Yeah, It’s great. You just don’t have that anymore. And by the way, if you go and pick out your own lobster somewhere, you want to know where to get the how to figure out the freshest lobster.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:02:16

Yeah, how?

Suzanne Corbett 1:02:17

Well, their well, they’re little antennas that come out. Lobsters are cannibalistic, and they’ll start nibbling on each other. So the ones with the shorter antennas have been in there for a while, are moving slower because they’ve been nibbled on. So you want ones with the longer antennas that you can get because they just well, they’re the newest part of the catch.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:02:39

That that’s a good good tip to know. A little gruesome, but nice to know.

Suzanne Corbett 1:02:44

Well, it’s Halloween almost. You know, we’re in that season.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:02:49

It’s nature.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:02:51

One last one. Ted Drewes. What would you say about Ted Drewes?

Suzanne Corbett 1:02:56

Oh, you got to have a concrete. You got to have a concrete from Ted Drewes, what kind do you like? Oh, I used to like the Flying Dutchman. That that’s a good good thing to have there. But you can always get the classics. Just good old fashioned frozen custard with some hot fudge, and don’t forget the cherry on the top and a little whipped cream, and you’re in heaven.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:03:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Save your calories somewhere else if you’re, you know, minding calories. But make sure you you save some room for for a concrete and Ted Drewes.

Suzanne Corbett 1:03:32

Save room on your plate for everything, because there’s always something new to discover, whether it’s old or new or or something that’s just came in trendy, you you want to save room because I’ll tell you what whatever it is it’s worth savoring.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:03:50

Absolutely. So where can people follow your work? Find out what you’re up to.

Suzanne Corbett 1:03:56

Oh, gee, I wish I could rattle off and say, well, I’ve got a website in this, and which I don’t, but I do have Facebook. I’m on Facebook. I’m on Instagram. Check out the varieties of of different special events, particularly with the park system, Campbell House right now, I will be to I will I have fall events that are coming up where I’ll be doing my food history thing, demonstrating different kinds of period foods at the Felix Valle House in Saint Genevieve on October the 24th or fifth, it’s that Saturday. I think it’s the 24th. I will be at White Haven for the holidays, doing historical gingerbread, and what I’m calling a found Christmas later on the the week after that for a an evening tour. And I believe I’m doing. Yes, I am. I’m doing a holiday, a Victorian tea at the Campbell House on December 3.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:05:09

All right. You’re busy.

Suzanne Corbett 1:05:11

So those are the things that I’ve got off. And then I’m also a writer, so you can follow me on a variety of different spots. I usually post my work, or or Google me. I pop up.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:05:23

Yeah, you’ll. It’s easy to find you.

Suzanne Corbett 1:05:25

I’m easily found. You found me.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:05:28

Do you have any new writing projects coming up? Any new books you’re working on?

Suzanne Corbett 1:05:32

Or I’ve got a few things that are cooking. But then again, I always do.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:05:38

And that sounds like a great place to end. Always cooking.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:05:42

Suzanne, thank you so much for taking time to talk with me today. Well, we covered a lot of ground on St. Louis food history. We barely scratched the surface, though. We I feel like we could we could have a long lunch or a four or five course meal somewhere over three or four hours and still not cover everything we’d like to talk about. So thanks for taking the time to talk with me today.

Suzanne Corbett 1:06:02

Well, thank you. We’ll do it again.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:06:04

All right, sounds good.

Suzanne Corbett 1:06:05

Cheers.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:06:11

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the series on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss out on future episodes. I offer the podcast for free, but when you support the show with a few bucks through Patreon you help keep the program going, just go to Patreon.com/deanklinkenberg. If you want to know more about the Mississippi River, check out my books. I write the Mississippi Valley Traveler guidebooks for people who want to get to know the Mississippi better. I also write the Frank Dodge mystery series that’s set in places along the river. Find them wherever books are sold. The Mississippi Valley Traveler podcast is written and produced by me, Dean Klinkenberg. Original music by Noah Fence. See you next time.