Episode 19: Revisiting the Legacy of the Marquette and Jolliet Expedition 350 Years On

On May 17, 1673—350 years ago—Louis Jolliet and Father Jacques Marquette began an epic trip from the Great Lakes through Wisconsin and down the Mississippi River, one that would prove to be enormously consequential for European colonial ambitions and for the lives of indigenous people in the region. In this episode, I talk with Michael Douglass, an enthusiastic historian and former director of Villa Louis Historic Site in Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin, who has a deep and abiding interest in the expedition.

We cover a lot of ground in this discussion, beginning with the context in which the expedition occurred, mainly New France’s ambitions to advance their economic and colonial interests and the status of many indigenous communities after decades of losses from disease and war. We then get into the progress of the trip itself, the indigenous communities impacted by the trip, and discuss recent concerns about the reliability of the documents that we’ve been using to understand the trip.

In the Mississippi Minute, l describe a few of the events happening in Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin, this summer to mark the 350th anniversary of this trip and a few ways folks can visit sites associated with the expedition.

Click here to find what’s happening in Prairie du Chien for the 350th anniversary

An English translation of Marquette’s journals

A good place to read English translations of Jesuit Relations

The book Michael Douglass recommended:

• Up Country: Voices from the Midwestern Wilderness by William Joseph

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Tue, May 16, 2023 4:36PM • 1:15:32

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

marquette, canoe, river, expedition, illinois, louis, mississippi river, huron, wisconsin, france, mississippi, language, iroquois, prairie du chien, jesuit, nations, mission, fur trade, journals, jesuits

SPEAKERS

Michael Douglass, Dean Klinkenberg

Michael Douglass 00:00

So both of these men have a great deal of knowledge. They have a great deal of youth and passion, and they are prepared to make a journey. It’s hard to imagine that the two people could have been really better suited for this.

Dean Klinkenberg 00:43

Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast. I’m Dean Klinkenberg and I’ve been exploring the deep history and rich culture of the people and places along America’s greatest river, the Mississippi, since 2007. Join me as I go deep into the characters and places along the river and occasionally wander into other stories from the Midwest and other rivers. Read the episode show notes and get more information on the Mississippi at MississippiValleyTraveler.com. Let’s get going. Welcome to Episode 19 of the Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast. The day this episode releases, May 17, 2023, is the 350th anniversary of the start of the famous expedition of Father Jacques Marquette and Louis Jolliet, who traveled from the Great Lakes through Wisconsin and down the Mississippi River. For a look back at the details and impact of their expedition, I talked with Michael Douglass, an enthusiastic historian and former director of Villa Louis Historic Site in Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin, who has a deep and abiding interest in the expedition. This single trip would prove to be enormously consequential for European colonial ambitions and for the lives of Indigenous people in the region. Douglass sets the stage for our discussion by talking about the context in which the expedition occurred, advancing the economic and colonial interests of New France that describes what we know about the progress of the trip itself. One aspect of their trip that really jumped out at me concerned how little food Marquette and Jolliet brought with them. Douglass noted that the Europeans believed they would be traveling through an area of abundance. That there would be plenty of food along the way from game, wild plants and maybe some additional foods such as corn from Native communities. So much of our modern conception of life in North America before factories and smartphones assumes hardships and scarcity. Yet in 1673, a group of Europeans traveling by canoe for months, knew that they could live comfortably off what the land and river has provided. It’s another reminder of the remarkable abundance and diversity in life in the world of the Mississippi River. Our discussion of the expedition also includes the Indigenous people they met along the way. How many of them were from tribes that had already suffered terrible losses and dislocation from disease and wars in the Northeast, and must have been desperate to make sense of the tragedies they were in the middle of. I find this expedition a challenging topic to dig into. Its history is complicated and complex and offers no shortage of points to please some and annoy others. Most of what we know about the trip comes from the perspectives of the Europeans who are involved. Some of whom, like Jolliet, were out to make a profit. While others, including Marquette, were out to save souls. In addition, you know, one of the key regularly cited sources has had its authenticity questioned in recent years, which Douglass gets into near the end of this interview. While this trip would ultimately change the lives of many Native Americans, their voices are not represented in this conversation. I apologize for that. I reached out to a couple of tribal historians and invited them to participate, but I wasn’t successful in those efforts. I’ll keep working on that. As always, thanks go out to my Patreon supporters, those new and ongoing ones, including Stephanie. If Patreon isn’t your thing, you can show some love by buying me a coffee. Go to my website, MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast to learn how to contribute in either one of those ways. And now, let’s get on with the interview. Michael Douglass was born and raised in Des Moines, Iowa, where he began a lifelong interest in history and the culture of indigenous North Americans. He graduated with a BA in anthropology from the University of Montana and attended Cooperstown Graduate Program in Museum Studies. He spent 32 years at the Wisconsin Historical Society, which included 30 years as Director of Villa Louis Historic Site in Prairie du Chien, Wisconsin. He’s also worked five seasons as a seasonal park ranger for the National Park Service at Effigy Mounds National Monument in Iowa. He’s been active in 18th and 19th century fur trader reenactments and is now retired as a War of 1812 reenactor. He’s presented numerous public programs on Marquette and Jolliet’s 1673 expedition and the history of the Upper Mississippi River and has lived along the banks of the Mississippi himself for 40 years. Welcome to the podcast, Michael.

Michael Douglass 05:30

Thank you. It’s my pleasure to be with you today.

Dean Klinkenberg 05:33

Well, we’re having this conversation today because this year marks one of those significant anniversaries. This year marks 350 years, that’s a long time, since Marquette and Jolliet conducted their expedition down the Mississippi River. So why don’t we start off a little bit by just talking about who these fellows were. Who were Marquette and Jolliet?

Michael Douglass 06:01

Well, they were two very interesting men who lived in New France in the early 17th century. Mid 17th century actually. Jolliet, Louis Jolliet was a son of the country if you will. He was born near Quebec in 18, excuse me, in 1645, and his father died when he was young. His mother remarried. The stepfather died a few years later. And Louis Jolliet was was educated by the Jesuits in Quebec. It appeared that he would take orders and become a priest. He was a gifted musician. He was a harpsichordist. He was an organist. He was a bright boy. He learned languages. He, of course, spoke Latin fluently. His father had been a wagon-maker for the Associates of 100. One wonders how well connected he might have been before that. It would appear that people took note of Louis Joliett when he was 16 or 17. He presented, along with a another student, a thesis in philosophy and debated John Talon, who was intendant, and Talon was impressed apparently. There was some something published about his taking note of these young scholars. But Jolliet determines not to become a priest. Indeed, he is attracted to, perhaps the more lucrative fur trade. Perhaps he was not prepared to take on a life of celibacy. We don’t know. We know that he would eventually marry and father six children, but he truly was a son of New France. In contrast, Jacques Marquette was born in France. He was born to a middle class family. He too was sent to Jesuit schools at an early age, nine or 10. Various numbers are reported. And he was groomed from an early age to become a priest. This was a time when the Jesuits were reaching out across the globe. Their successes in Paraguay in the 1540s were renowned. They worked diligently among the Guarani Indians in Paraguay. Thirty villages were converted, numbering something like 80,000 individuals. The Jesuit Relations were reports of activities in the Americas, that were published in France. And Marquette would have had access to these. He would have read about the the work of the missionaries, the exotic cultures they were encountering. He would have known too about some of the martyrdoms and the sacrifices that the Jesuits made in the in the name of evangelism. The Society of Jesus, the Jesuits, had been founded by Ignatius of Loyola. And he had stated from the very beginning, that it was necessary that we enter the world of other cultures, so that we should enter the door of other cultures, so that they would exit through ours. And really lifted up the mandate from St. Matthew to go to all nations and spread the good news of our Savior Jesus Christ. These were men who were burdened, they were deeply committed to the notion that people of faith had a commitment and an obligation and a holy obligation, to share the Good News of the risen Christ with with other nations. And we can’t underestimate the role of this. It was fundamental. Catholic world in the 17th century really saw the church as the one true moral authority. And this was not just something nice, it was something that had to be done. So we have two very different perspectives. We have an individual coming out of New France, Louis Jolliet, representing the interests of the fur trade. We have Jacques Marquette representing the missionary passion, if you will. Indeed is a passion I think. What is all this predicated on? This is all predicated by the establishment of the fur trade. The beaver fur had been discovered almost at the very beginning. When Cartier is first mapping and exploring the St. Lawrence, they see the Algonquin natives coming out of the forest wearing these robes of beaver skins, and they know that beaver is the most important fiber in the world for making hats, and beaver fur felt hats are the epitome of fashion in Europe. And the resources are almost gone. And now they find beaver in North America. And in this perhaps mythic but this exchange between the very first Basque fishermen and the Algonquin Indians. The exchange of European-made knives for beaver pelts began an industry, and by the 17th century, by the founding of of Montreal…by the founding of Quebec in 1608, the fur trade is established. And the French are seeking a trade partner, and they engage with the Huron and they become trade partners with the Huron. And they will become missionary partners with the Huron. To the south, the Dutch enter the whole world of the fur trade and of westward expansion in the 1620s. And they establish trade relations with the Iroquois – ancient enemies of the Huron. In due course, the Dutch will supply guns to the Iroquois, which enable them to go to war with the Huron. But before that happens in the 1640s, the Huron are decimated by smallpox. So the Europeans not only bring a zeal for converts, a zeal for for trading. They also bring disease. And the smallpox epidemics are devastating. Between 1636 and 1641, the Huron lose 1000s and 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of people. And in the weakened state, they just are not able to resist the the incursions of the Iroquois into their land. And that pushes the Heron west. They flee Lake Huron. They flee the Georgian Bay. They flee across Michigan, all the way to the Mississippi River and eventually all the way up to the Chequamegon Bay and Lake Superior. And they’re just a fragment of who they once were. But their trade partners and their mission partners in New France, follow them. So that’s where we’re beginning to see as Marquette and Jolliet began kind of moving toward each other, if you will, in the early 1670s. 1666, Marquette, before he has finished all of his studies in France. Before he’s ordained, he comes to the New World and continues to studies in Canada, in Quebec. So, Marquette is in Canada. He’s beginning to learn native languages. He understands how critical it is to be able to speak the language. To be able to extract the information that he really hopes to get. So he first begins studying the Montagnais language, and by 1673, it said that he knows six native languages. In 1668 he leaves to come back with Father Claude Dablon, who is making his way up through the ranks of Jesuit leadership in the New World. Claude Dablon will eventually become the superior of all Jesuits in New France and Marquette and Dablon have an established relationship and they travel together to found the Ottowa Mission at Sault Sainte-Marie. And that is in 1668. In 1670, Marquette has moved from Sault Sainte-Marie out to Chequamegon Bay after Allouez pulls back. So Marquette, with some knowledge of Ottawa language, goes to Chequamegon where there are Ottawa peoples living as well as remnant Huron. He doesn’t speak Huron very well and the Huron were used to Father Allouez who spoke Huron fluidly and Marquette is reminded again of how important language is. While he is there at Chequamegon, Illinois Indians begin visiting. And later he will say that the Illinois um, have had some exposure with with at least second degree Europeans. They’ve heard from others about European traders, they are wearing glass beads, they clearly have had some contact, and they want to have a missionary come to their villages in the Illinois. And Marquette is just ecstatic and writes to Dablon about the fact that Illinois had been sharing these stories about how they have walked from the Illinois country, and they describe a river, a great river. When the Illinois come to La Pointe, they cross a great river which is nearly a league in width, flows north to south, into such a distance that the Illinois who do not know what a canoe is, have not yet heard any mention of its mouth. They simply know that there are some very large nations lower down than themselves, some of whom toward the east southwest of their country raise two crops of Indian corn in a year. A nation that they call the Shawano come and see them last summer. And this young man who has been giving to me. This young man who has been given to me and is teaching me the language saw them. They are laden with glass beads, which shows that they have had communication with Europeans. They had come overland the journey of nearly 30 days before reaching the country. It is hard to believe that the great river discharges its waters in Virginia, and we think rather than it has its mouth in California. If the savages who promised to make me a canoe do not break their word to me, we shall explore this river as far as we can. And he goes on to describe. So that is Marquette in Chequamegon in 1670. Now, meantime, Louis Jolliet has made a decision to enter the fur trade, and Jolliet has established himself at Sault Sainte-Marie. And has entered the trade. In 1671, Governor Frontenac and intendant Jean Talon determined that it is time to make a claim to the lands touched by all of the Great Lakes. So they send word out through their contacts for the missionaries and others to invite nations to Sault Sainte-Marie for a great ceremony in June of 1671. In June of 1671, all of the waters touched by the Great Lakes and James Bay are claimed for France. And at this time, Talon instructs Marquette, excuse me, instructs Louis Jolliet, that he wishes him to lead an expedition to map a route to what they hope is the Mississippi River and to figure out exactly where the Mississippi river goes. And Claude Dablon, who is at that ceremony also, knows the man who needs to go with the Louis Jolliet. Now the government cannot offer any funding to subsidize this expedition, but they can offer Jolliet trading rights. And so those are extended to Jolliet, which are worth a vast amount of money. And we have to assume that the Jesuits are underwriting Marquette’s role in this whole journey. So the two men meet sometime in the late summer of 1672, somewhere in the vicinity of Sault Sainte-Marie, St. Ignatius, and they begin making plans for an expedition to leave in the spring of 1673. By this time, Marquette has mastered languages. Jolliet is a is a gifted scholar, a bright man who’s also a cartographer. He knows how to use the tools of mapmaking, and he knows his way around the western country. So both of these men have a great deal of knowledge. They have a great deal of, of youth and passion, and they are prepared to make a journey. It’s hard to imagine that the two people could have been really better suited for this. This is what Dablon has to say about Louis Jolliet. “They were not mistaken in their choice that they made of Sir Jolliet, for he is a young man born in this country who possesses all the qualifications that can be desired for such an undertaking. He has experience and knows the languages spoken in the country of the Ottawa, where he has passed several years. He possesses tact and prudence, which are the chief qualities necessary for the success of a voyage as dangerous as it is difficult. Finally, he has the courage to dread nothing where everything is to be feared. Consequently, he has fulfilled all the expectations entertained of him. And if after having passed through 1000 dangers, he had not unfortunately been wrecked in the very harbor. His canoe having been upset below the Sault St. Louys, near Montreal, where he lost both his men his papers. And whencew he would escape only back sort of miracle, nothing would have been left to be desired in the success of his voyage.” We’re jumping way ahead when we get to that last part, we’ll come back to that later. The point being is that Louis Jolliet was extremely well suited for this voyage. And Father Marquette, although he had only been in this country for seven years, is also extremely well suited for this journey. And so it comes together. Two canoes…

Dean Klinkenberg 22:28

Well, before we get into the, before we jump into the journey itself, let’s set the context a little bit more. At the time, the French communities in this part of Canada, we’re basically…what, Montreal was kind of the center the capital of French Canada at that time?

Michael Douglass 22:49

Yes.

Dean Klinkenberg 22:49

And then may, I guess there probably would have been some community at Quebec City?

Michael Douglass 22:56

Yes.

Dean Klinkenberg 22:57

And then the other communities that you mentioned, really were around Sault Sainte-Marie, at St. Ignace. And so there was kind of a, was that more of a Jesuit based outpost, a missionary outpost at that time?

Michael Douglass 23:11

Sault St. Marie was, I believe. We’re really getting into the missions. New France would have extended through Trois-Rivieres and really beginning to push up the rivers. Really, what was advancing New France was the advancement of the fur trade. So we’re really seeing the fur trade starting to move in beyond the farm communities of Quebec, Quebec City of Quebec, including Montreal. So yes, that’s right.

Dean Klinkenberg 23:47

So then the other for the Native Americans in that part of the world at that time, then, you’ve already hinted at this. There was, they were already faced with a lot of disruptions in their communities. The Huron had suffered massive losses from smallpox. The Iroquois or, I don’t know Shawnee, I think is what they use today, they had also suffered tremendous losses. And there were a lot of battles going on. There was already, there were already fights happening for controlling the fur trade and the benefits from that. And there was, so there was already a fairly substantial dislocation from the east coast of survivors who migrated more toward the Great Lakes and the Midwest, if I remember right, would that be about right?

Michael Douglass 24:35

That’s absolutely accurate. Um, so we really have to look at the combined impacts of European disease and historic nations being decimated by disease. And then the addition of, of the European machinations of, of empire building and supplying different nations with with armaments. And then the dislocation of that. So yes, we are watching a massive diaspora of eastern nations being forced west, and having to adapt to all kinds of new situations. And also one can only imagine, um, a tinder, and open to looking for answers to extraordinarily difficult questions of why has so much changed so quickly in such a short amount of time? And what does this mean for us? So we see in some cases, I think, an openness to, at least to the missionary efforts, that we just really, really have to have to ponder. So, yes, it’s an extraordinarily challenging time. And it’s difficult sometimes, you know, when you when you are a enmeshed in reading these historic records, you start using all of these historic names. And of course, we’re talking about not First Nation, people are not Native Americans, we’re talking about Indians. We’re talking about Iroquois, we’re talking about all of these, these these names that come down to us. And we need to be sensitive to that as well. We do need to also acknowledge the challenges of looking at warfare in this era. It was, it was not a good thing to be captured as an enemy. But [indeciperable] was not a good thing at all. And it could be tough. So we, there’s just there’s, there’s a lot of challenging pieces. It’s what makes this whole time period so fascinating. And the notion in 1671, it just seems to me to be a very positive time period for New France. The so called “Iroquois Wars” are now at peace. The English have taken over the Dutch colonies in New York. The English have established the Hudson’s Bay Company to the north. The French are looking west, they see their future in the West. They have claimed these lands. Now they need to understand these lands. And they have this great plan. It has an agenda. They have two well equipped, great, youngish men with an agenda. And that really brings us I think, to the spring of 1673.

Dean Klinkenberg 27:44

Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here interrupting myself. Just wanted to remind you that if you’d like to know more about the Mississippi River, check out my books. I write the Mississippi Valley Traveler guide books for people who want to get to know the river better. I also write the Frank Dodge mystery series set in places along the Mississippi. Read those books to find out how many different ways my protagonist Frank Dodge can get into trouble. My newest book, “Mississippi River Mayhem”, details some of the disasters and tragedies that happened along Old Man River. Find any of them wherever books are sold. Let’s get into it then. So at what point did did they know they were going to take this trip? And then what did they do to get ready for this? They had to know they were going to be gone probably for months. How do they prepare for something like this?

Michael Douglass 28:36

Well, I think that certainly in the case of Father Marquette, he had been mentally preparing for this for years. He had been mentally preparing for this when he was still living in France. So he had thought about this specifically. The expedition comes together in the fall of 1672. And it comes together with with Marquette and Jolliet actually meeting and beginning to plan together in in the vicinity between Sault Sainte-Marie, where Jolliet is established, and St. Ignace were Marquette is. They certainly review all of the reports they’ve heard. They likely had an opportunity to interview Claude Allouez again, to get what he learned. They had an opportunity to have correspondence with Claude Dablon. He had been as far as the Mascouten village on the Fox River out of De Pere. We’ll talk about that in a minute. They’re really clarifying all the knowledge they have and all of the possibilities that could go wrong and in looking at the tools they would need. Marquette is undoubtedly putting equipment together. Compasses, astrolabes other cartographic tools that he’s going to need to make accurate measure of latitude. And they needed to have canoes built. What sort of a canoe would they take? One can only imagine that the traditional express canoe of 16 to 17 feet was too small. A Monterey canoe, the great express canoes, traveled goods across Lake Superior, 36 feet long, paddled by 12 people is too big. The north canoes that tended to be about 24 to 27 feet long and about 50 to 60 inches wide, my guess would have been just about perfect. The crew they’re going to take is lean. They plan to take five men. Again, we don’t really know who they are. Some sources that I’ve consulted, suggested they are Metis, they are men are born of mixed marriage of European fathers and Indigenous mothers. We don’t know that, as far as I’m concerned. I mean, we don’t know exactly who they were. They don’t have names. And we also learned that their provisions are extraordinarily lean. We are told they took Indian corn and smoked meat. So clearly they intend to secure provisions along the route.

Dean Klinkenberg 31:23

They had a lot of confidence in their ability to acquire food along the way it sounds like.

Michael Douglass 31:29

Well, I would absolutely agree. But I think that we also have to give credit to Louis Jolliet, of knowing the skills of the men that he recruited. And just the, the expectation of the abundance of the country. They’re leaving. They’re leaving early. They’re leaving in mid May. They actually embark from St. Ignace on May 17th of 1673.

Dean Klinkenberg 32:03

Let me just ask real quick for that then too. You mentioned before, the languages. So just give me a sense like what languages did Marquette speak at the time that they left? And what about Jolliet? What language was he fluent in as well?

Michael Douglass 32:17

Well, their native language of course, was French and their scholastic language was Latin. Marquette had learned Montagnais and Ottawa, and had picked up Huron and was learning Illinois languages. And these are all Algonquin languages. So there’s some, there’s some linguistic ties, but they’re nuanced. And, you know, the more nuanced you can speak, the better your success will be in any level of communication much, much less inspirational or educational. Jolliet on the other hand, would have been working among the Ottawa and two, I would think, among the Anishinaabe as well, who are also beginning to make their way west at this point. So they, maybe a smattering of Miami, and perhaps some Macouten. And again, these are all Algonquian languages. So they’re going to be listening and doing their best to, to nuance their own language. It’s, it’s actually sort of mind boggling when you think about what’s going on in these guys’ heads.

Dean Klinkenberg 33:38

Absolutely. And I just, somebody who has tried to learn French and Spanish and a little bit of Italian, these are all Latin based languages, but they’re very different from each other. And the vocabulary can be so different from one another. So you can just imagine the challenges of trying to keep that all straight in your head as you’re communicating with people who speak different dialects of Algonquin, or different versions of Algonquin. So that’s pretty amazing.

Michael Douglass 34:05

Yeah, indeed. So anyway, so there they are. I’ve never been to the Straits of Mackinac on May 17th. My guess is it’s still a little chilly. Their canoes, as we have suggested, were probably in the 24 foot length. They’re loaded with equipment. They have both learned a certain amount of knowledge about Native American diplomacy. They understand the importance of giving gifts. So their canoes would have undoubtedly been laden with as many gifts as they could have mustered. In these gifts would have been from the range of fur trade goods and religious iconography. There could have been Jesuit rings. There could have been crosses. There could have been holy cards on the part of Marquette. There could have been blankets and axes and knives and be beads on the part of Louis Jolliet. So undoubtedly a good amount of canoe space was given over to gifts. A good amount of it was given over to equipment. And then what was needed for their five men. Plus, there was some extra room and we’ll we’ll learn in a few minutes when we get to that point on why that was important as well. So they get started and there’s some some very clear stopping off places along the way. It’s not a straight shot to the Mississippi. It’s a working their way through the known Jesuit world. Through the known world of New France. So they are traveling initially from St. Ignace into Lake Michigan, and they’re following the shore of Lake Michigan and coming down to La Baye, the Green Bay. What they don’t record which I find it fascinating is the the perilous entry into Green Bay. It’s a, it’s you can see when you look at the map how, how there was at one time the peninsula was connected. It’s very rocky, it’s very dangerous. All of the groups that have reenacted the Marquette and Jolliet expedition have had a extremely difficult time getting into Green Bay. It’s perilous on the best of days. They were coming in, in late May, when the waters of Lake Michigan were still extraordinarily cold. And it would have been dicey. They don’t mention it. They say nothing about it up there, they it they are so giddy about getting this trip started. This is like there’s nothing that’s too challenging. They’re just on this on this sort of “expedition high” and they’re they’re making their way as quickly as they can to the Jesuit presence at La Baye. Now La Baye is a metropolitan, native village, something like 10,000 souls made up of all of these remnant nations that have fled the east and are gathered now in Green Bay, La verde De la Baye and in DePere, which is kind of slightly west. So Green Bay proper, was the Mission St. Xavier. And that was the Jesuit presence in in La Baye. So they make their way to St. Xavier. And they refortified in St. Xavier. They refresh themselves and spend some days there. And of course, every time they stop, there’s just, there’s prayers and supplications. And, you know, we’re now we’re in the middle of May, it’s the month of the Blessed Virgin. So there’s lots of lots of special attention to prayers, the novenas and so forth and so on, surrounding the Blessed Virgin. And then and then they’re prepared to leave from there. And so they do leave from Green Bay in late May. And this is the first time they say it, it’s really they meet their first real challenge. And they begin to ascend the Fox River. And the rapids on the lower Fox are just extremely challenging. Very sharp rocks. Again, the description that we have as a low water, this is just treacherous for those who are obliged to have to drag the canoes over the rocks. And it’s sort of sort of wonder was, was Marquette one of those obliged do this or was that what those five guys were brought along from the ranks of the voyagers have not yet become voyagers. But that’s another thing that’s kind of developing.

Dean Klinkenberg 39:09

Did the missionary priests have to do any of the hard labor as part of this trip, right?

Michael Douglass 39:13

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Dean Klinkenberg 39:15

I just want to point out again, too, these canoes, we’re talking birch bark canoes, right?

Michael Douglass 39:20

Right. You don’t drag birch bark over sharp rocks. Yeah.

Dean Klinkenberg 39:24

So I’m assuming they probably had to do some repairs along the way.

Michael Douglass 39:29

Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, every every birch bark canoe carried a roll of birch bark and a bucket of pitch and pine tar and so forth and so on. And yes, that was part and parcel to travel with birch bark canoe. And you were very careful with them. You just do not drag them anywhere ever. So there they are. And so they ascend the Fox River to a point near what is today, the city of Berlin, Wisconsin, and there is a Mascouten village there. It’s actually a village that is made up of Mascouten, Kickapoo and Miami. Again, one of these sort of assembled communities of, of remnant bands that have been forced out of their traditional homelands and are now living along the Fox River in what is Wisconsin. And they’re particularly impressed with Miami guides, Miami people that they meet there. And out of the Miami, who they meet and are treated very well, really say they are the superior people of this community. They truly strike up a relationship and ask for help from the Miami and the Miami say ‘we know there’s a way and we can we can help you get there.’ So two Miami guides leave the Mascouten village and travel with with Marquette and Joliett, west another 100 miles or so.

Dean Klinkenberg 41:19

So they really wanted the guides to come along with them to help them make the connection to the Wisconsin River, as I remember. Is that essentially right?

Michael Douglass 41:29

That is absolutely correct. They’re noting vegetation. They’re making all kinds of observational notes as they’re making their way off the Fox River. And among the other things they’re noting are just these vast beds of of wild rice. The first people they encounter and when they enter Wisconsin are the so-called “Folle Avoine” Indians. Folle Avoine translates as “wild oats”. Wild oats refers to wild rice on this as a nation we today known as the Menominee and the Menominee name for wild rice is “Menomin” or the Algonquin name for wild rice is “Menomin”. And so the wild rice beds are just abundant, and the wild rice is just in full reed in in late May. So the Wisconsin is…excuse me.. the Fox River is a rich territory, and it’s just loaded with game and loaded with with wild rice and, and so forth and so on. It was said, “For this reason we greatly needed our two guides. And these are two Miami guides, who safely conducted us to a portage of 2700 paces and helped us to transport our canoes to enter that river; after which they returned home, leaving us alone in this unknown country. In the hands of Providence.” This is where the rubber meets the road.

Dean Klinkenberg 43:09

This is when the adventure really begins. This is when the adventure really begins.

Michael Douglass 43:16

And again, Marquette says, “Thus we left the waters flowing to Quebec, four or five hundred leagues from here, to float on those that would thenceforward take us through strange lands. Before embarking thereon, we began all together a new devotion to the Blessed Virgin Immaculate, which we practiced daily, addressing to her special prayers to place under her protection, both our own persons and the success of our voyage. And after mutually encouraging one another, we entered our canoes.” There they go. And it’s fairly, it’s just it’s just so lovely. It’s almost too lovely. And we’ll come back to that later. Okay, it’s almost too lovely. So they start down the Wisconsin River and they are now traveling in Ho-Chunk territory. And I don’t know where the Ho-Chunk are, I can’t imagine they don’t know what’s going on. But they choose, they choose not to engage. So they traveled down the through these beautiful, beautiful lands along the lower Wisconsin River. They see buffalo. They see fish. They see birds. They see the so-called “river of 1000 islands” and it is beautiful. It is beautiful in June. And they are, they are, they are in high spirits. Excuse me. Um, they are in high spirits. They’re feeling great. And I think that they are feeling blessed. They’re feeling blessed. They’re feeling like they are on a righteous mission, and they are feeling like the way is being smoothed for them. And that has just got to put you into a very positive frame of mind. And so it’s just with this quiet exultation that they enter the Mississippi River on the morning of June 17, 1673. And Marquette simply says, “Today, we enter the Mississippi with a joy that I cannot express.”

Dean Klinkenberg 45:35

It’s a beautiful sentence too. I hope there’s some historical truth to it. I’m sure he said something like that.

Michael Douglass 45:44

I’m sure he did, too. I mean, I want to believe he did. I want to ponder what he meant. Was he speechless? Were there no words? Were there just nothing that could really give voice to, to what this was? You know, I have talked, I talked about these guys on the river, literally dozens of times, on boats sitting at the mouth of the Wisconsin River. And I have sat and I will say right now, sitting in those two birch bark canoes, looking at that vast gorge, looking north to the bluff, soaring 550 feet above the water, looking south, not knowing exactly where they were. But surely knowing that they have found something of profound importance. Something that will change the course of history. Not just for them, but for the world. It truly was phenomenal. And, you know, it has been said that their discovery of the river was as important in its day as Lewis and Clark’s expedition was to the young United States. It’s important as the Apollo 11’s landing was to 20th century Americans. This gave confidence. This gave knowledge. And this gave a sense of mission to New France. It was profound indeed. Still, things are just quiet. And things are just going along, seemingly impossibly well. And they begin to descend the river. And isn’t until they get to the confluence of the Des Moines almost at the southern end of Iowa, Wisconsin, that they see the first traces of other human occupation. They’re taking precautions. They’re sleeping in their canoes at night on the water. They’re posting a guard every night. They’re very much concerned that they might have some sort of hostile encounter. And finally, they do find their way to a pathway. And they know that the pathway leads to some sort of settlement.

Dean Klinkenberg 48:15

At the point where they hit the Wisconsin River then they were kind of near the western end of the Ho-Chunk’s territory, whom they apparently did not have any contact with for all we can tell. And then on the other side of the river, would have been Dakota, people who were, I think, somewhat related. I think they spoke, they both spoke Siouan languages. I don’t remember what the relationships were between the Ho-Chunk and the Dakota, but it’s another group of people. It’s a, it’s a group of, it’s a community that really hadn’t had the same level of disruption as tribes had east of the Mississippi. This was kind of the context they were about to enter as I understand it, is that…?

Michael Douglass 49:02

I think so. Well, let’s let’s talk about that a little bit. Yes, you’re absolutely right, that that Ho-Chunk is a Siouan language, as is Nadouessioux or the Dakota and they are fairly distant. There’s certainly some commonality and indeed, to this day, Dakota and Lakota, tell stories of the Effigy Mounds and stories of the mountains of the Driftless region, which are the same stories that Ho-Chunk tell. So they’re both languages have sprouted from the same linguistic tree. The Dakota certainly will range south to this area. Moreso as time advances. Indeed, Marquette had encountered Dakota when he was at the Mission Saint-Esprit. The Dakota began to threaten and harass the Hurons which really prompted the Hurons to retreat east again, which took Marquette east again. So and he, he specifically refers to the Nadouessioux, the Dakota, as “our Iroquois.” Um, so he really sees this nation as a threatening nation. So yes, I think you are absolutely correct in thinking they would have had a wary eye to the west side of the Mississippi River. And they, of course, don’t really have any sense of at all of where these Indigenous boundaries are. So they don’t,they don’t know what what they’re going to find. When they do find this village, they find a they find a group of people related to the Illinois, the Peoria, who have knowledge of the French and who, who greet them with this openness. It’s just again, it’s almost too beautiful. They say ‘oh, how glorious is the sun on the day when you Oh Frenchman have arrived.” It’s just, it’s paraphrasing, it’s the words are inscribed on Marquette’s monument in his home village in France. It’s really quite beautiful.

Dean Klinkenberg 51:31

And you mentioned before that this was around the Des Moines River. So we’re getting now to modern day kind of the border around Missouri, Illinois, that the northwest corner of Missouri.

Michael Douglass 51:41

That’s right.

Dean Klinkenberg 51:44

Just real quick thing. I just wanted to point out that the there’s a state historic site there now. The Illiniwek Village State Historic Site that I think as far as we know, we believe is probably the village that Marquette and Jolliet encountered. The site of where that village was.

Michael Douglass 52:01

I think, I think that’s true. So yeah, so now we’re beginning to really map, we’re getting we’re really getting to the start linking, to seeing what’s their knowledge that they’re going to bring forward. So they begin to figure out, you know, pretty quickly, they’re discovering very important rivers. So they, they map the confluence of the Des Moines. They will map the confluence of the Missouri. They will map the confluence of the Ohio. And they will come to understand that the Ohio is not the Mississippi, which had been speculated before. And they will begin to see that Mississippi really runs in a much more north-south route than a than a southwest route. One of their very, very specific objectives was to figure out where the mouth of the Mississippi River was. There was that hope, there was that possibility that it went west, and in fact that California was much much closer. In that and finding the Mississippi emptying into the Bay of California would have been a route to China. Um, that that notion that there was still a passage was very much alive. So, they are there they are really very specifically to determine that. So they continue along the way. They are fascinated by their observance of Indigenous cultural traits, observances, diplomacy. They are fascinated with the use of the pipe, the calumet, as a as a prayer instrument, and as a friendship instrument. They are given a calumet, which will play favorably in their encounter with Indigenous people. They, they really, the journals would suggest that they are learning nuance, the nuance of Indigenous diplomacy in a new way. And that they practice it. That they are sensitive to it. They’re intelligent enough to understand what they’re seeing, and they’re putting it to use. So they’re just, they’re, they’re setting a standard for peaceful diplomacy. They are gathering information. They make their way up past the Illinois River. They make their way past the Arkansas River. And again in in conversation with nations they are meeting, they learn that the Mississippi River continues to the south and that there are Europeans as they near the mouth. And they deduce that these are Spaniards, and they deduce that it is not well for them to have encounters with the Spanish. They sense that they understand where the Mississippi goes. That it indeed does empty into the Gulf of Mexico and no place else. They feel that they have enough knowledge and that it is time to, to begin to, to beat a hasty retreat home. They have achieved their objective of finding the Illinois, of finding favorable response to the Illinois. In really establishing a bond with the Illinois. They’re shown, they’re suggested, a better route than the Wisconsin River to get back to Michigan. Lake Michigan. And so they and so using the advice of the Illinois, they make their way up the Illinois River, and then to the Des Plaines and across the Chicago Portage and back to Lake Michigan that way. It indeed is a better way. Along the way they encounter the Illinois at Kaskasia and this will become a focal point. This will be the Illinois that they ultimately choose to, to really connect with. And, and so, so they return, so they make your way back. Sadly, on this trip, Marquette has begun to develop some gastrointestinal issues. He has, he has developed a dysentery perhaps or at least at least GI issues, shall we say. He is just not feeling well at all. Um, he gets back as far as the Mission St. Xavier in De Pere and remains there and starts putting his his his papers together. Louis Jolliet continues on and makes his way back to Sault Sainte-Marie, and spends the winter there, preparing his reports, finishing his maps, putting all of his all of his goods in order. So this takes us into the end of the winter of 1674. They spend the autumn resting, recuperating, reflecting, getting a sense preparing reports and forwarding reports on to Dablon and others on what they found. So we get to the spring of 1674 and a couple of things of great importance happen. Marquette has made the decision and has the go ahead to return to the Illinois and establish a mission. It had been his intention he had said when he first set off that if he found the Mississippi, he would name the river the Conception River in honor of the Blessed Virgin. And now he will found a mission at Kaskaskia which he will call the Mission of Immaculate Conception, which was kind of cool. But, but he’s just too sick to travel. He just can’t, he can’t do it. And he and he’s doctoring and De Pere at the mission and he’s trying to get his health together and trying to get the resources organized to travel back to the Illinois. He finally does get things underway in October of 1674. Um, gets about as far as Chicago and just can’t travel any further that winter. Is able to pick up the journey again, but he’s really suffering, he’s very ill. And he he managed to be able to travel again in late March early April, just right exactly where we are today talking about this, right during Holy Week. He makes it to back to Kaskaskia and he’s there to celebrate the Triduum and has Holy Thursday and Good Friday, and the Easter Vigil and Easter Sunday. He preaches to 1500 Illinois. But he just not he’s just not well, and he realizes he’s got to get home. And so he starts out and he just doesn’t really get very far before he’s overcome near Ludington, Michigan and he dies there. Just a couple of weeks short of his 38th birthday. He dies on May 18th, I believe 1675, and is buried there. A couple of years later his remains are disinterred and his body is taken back to St. Ignace. Meantime, in the spring of 1674, Louis Jolliet is ready to return to Montreal. So he is he has loaded up his canoe with all of his papers and all of his instruments and his precious journals and his precious maps. And he, he sets off in his canoe, and somewhere around the rapids of Lachine, just near the confluence of the Ottawa River near Montreal. He gets into some terrible rapids and his canoe capsizes. The water is cold. It was a rugged, rugged misadventure. The two men in his canoe perish, his precious box of journals and maps and instruments sinks to the bottom of the river. He clings to a rock for hours. The legend has it that the fishermen, who never fish in that part of the river, happened to be there and see him and, and pull him out. But he has lost everything, including almost his life. So I think he, like me, was, didn’t know what to make of it. He didn’t know what had happened, what was happening with Marquette at this point. He didn’t know what was going to happen next. He was brilliant. He had made these observations, he had made maps and prepared journals and prepared reports. Theoretically, he had prepared a set of notes which he had left behind Sault Sainte-Marie, that were later destroyed by fire. We do know that that summer, he has an extensive interview with Claude Dablon. And Dablon, we believe, made copious notes and really extracted every bit of memory he possibly could of Louis Jolliet. And then Louis Jolliet moves on with his life. Louis Jolliet marries. Becomes important in the fur trade. Will become involved in exploration and serve the government of New France, all his days, until the end of the 17th century. A remarkable man. A remarkable man and truly has been suggested many times, that in all rights it probably should be known as the Jolliet and Marquette expedition. Jolliet truly was the brilliant mind behind the expedition. But if he wasn’t really a mind, Marquette was the heart and the passion and the zeal in the expedition. And it really was the braiding of those two things together, I think that has made this epic expedition just so compelling. So sorting out now 300 years later, 350 years later, the myth and the reality and the significance is challenging. And trying to sort out the relationship of this truly remarkable achievement, with the fact that it represents the epitome of the tools of conquest, who could change the lives of Indigenous people forever, makes it an extraordinarily challenging topic. But one that I just, I’m drawn to.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:03:55

Oh, it’s a it’s a big story.

Michael Douglass 1:03:57

It’s a very big story.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:04:01

And I, you know, I didn’t realize this until fairly recently, too, that you know, that there were such substantial gaps in what we actually know. So, you know, even the things that we’ve talked about today, like so, Jolliet’s journals. He lost everything. I can’t imagine like, personally, how devastating that must have been to be that close to home and spent all that time and effort in this remarkable trip and documenting it all so meticulously, and then to have it all taken from you, in the rapids in the blink of an eye. Had to be personally devastating. So given that, what do you think the records are that we’re using to base the stuff that we’ve talked about today? Why do we know what we know? Where does it come from?

Michael Douglass 1:04:48

Indeed, that I think is the $64 question. We know ostensibly where it came from. It came from a journal that was published in the Jesuit Relations that purported to be Marquette’s journal. And it’s a beautiful journal. We have his writings from from when he was at the Mission Saint-Esprit. We have some other correspondence between him and Dablon, and we have this remarkable journal. But the authorship of that journal has been questioned over the years. Is it indeed the hand of Marquette? Or is it the hand of Claude Dablon? And if it is the latter, why, why? Why would Marquette be recast as the perfect missionary? The missionary of intelligence and diplomacy and evangelistic zeal, who left us this incredible record. Why would this sort of a personage be created by the Jesuits? I don’t know. I don’t know. I think it’s absolutely fascinating.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:06:11

It is. Maybe they needed, maybe they needed an idol or, you know, somebody that they thought exemplified the perfect Jesuit, to put out there. Who knows?

Michael Douglass 1:06:22

Who knows? Indeed, I think it’s, and I’m not willing to dismiss. I’m not, I you know, I’m not ready. I’m sorry, I, I don’t really still believe in Santa Claus altogether. But I, but I also want to believe that Marquette’s journals are Marquette’s journals. So I don’t know, I don’t know. I think that I think we have to dismiss I think we have to separate the remarkable achievement of the expedition, and the reality of the expedition. And the and the, the mythology of the expedition, which had to do with national identity, and had to do with with spiritual identity and had to do with a sense of purpose. And I think some of those things. I think we have to be willing to perhaps absorb those two trajectories a little bit without necessarily one diminishing the other. Because I don’t think that we can really under underestimate the significance of the expedition itself. I don’t know.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:07:38

That’s fascinating. Well, we’re kind of winding down time here. So I was just kind of wondering, for people who might be interested in knowing a little bit more, I think when we talked before, like there, there aren’t a huge number of resources to consult on this expedition. Do you have something you would recommend that people check out if they wanted to know a little bit more?

Michael Douglass 1:08:01

It’s always interesting to start poking around the internet. There’s a lot out there. I found some pieces from a Canadian biography, Encyclopedia of Canadian biography to be very interesting. The Jesuit Relations are just absolutely fascinating. They should be a destination for anyone interested in this. Just to look at them and to look at the language and a look at the scope of, of the really remarkable work of the Jesuits. Whether you are a religious inclination or not, they are a impressive group of men. And I think they are definitely worth looking at. The Marquette journals have been published in a variety of different different forms. I’ve been carrying around a little book for many, many years, which I just love. It’s called “Up country: Voices from the midwestern wilderness.” It was published by Round River Publishing Company in Madison, back in 1985. It’s just one of my favorites. And there’s a lot of others too, the Wisconsin Historical Society, they launched a program about 15 years ago, called “Turning Place in History”. You’ll find some pretty good Marquette and Jolliet materials at their site. And I think really, I haven’t looked in Illinois and Michigan, I’m sure that both of those historical societies have some really rich resources as well. I think that what’s really a cool way to visit these guys, is to visit this landscape. Whether it’s by road or by canoe, or by combination of both. Look at this country. Look at what they were looking at. That it’s inspirational today, in ways that I think are similar to what it was 350 years ago. I love being on the Mississippi River on the upper river and be on the Mississippi River on June 17th, you know, in 2023. Just see what it feels like oh, that’s and take a copy of the journal on it and read it while you’re sitting in your canoe.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:10:09

Right. And then when you’re done being on the river, you can head to Pike’s Peak State Park in Iowa and you can look out from the overlook over 500 feet above the river at the confluence of the Wisconsin and Mississippi River and imagine two parties and birch bark news coming through there.

Michael Douglass 1:10:26

Absolutely. And that’s usually what I do on June 17, as I head up there, because that is indeed a magnificent overlook, and about the most beautiful place I can think of on the upper river. It’s where I hope one day my mortal remains will be blasted from that, that very, that very point. So anyway,

Dean Klinkenberg 1:10:46

So what are you up to these days? And do you have any projects you’re working on anything you’d like to tell folks about?

Michael Douglass 1:10:54

I’m really hoping to continue talking about Marquette and Jolliet throughout the spring and summer. I’ve really, I I’ve really gotten kind of hooked on it again. And I’m, I’m fascinated by it. So I hope to be able to be doing some public programming. We’re talking about doing some Mississippi River excursions on Sundays in July, August and September. We’ll get some people out on the river and actually talk about these guys. And other than that, I’m just going to be soaking it all in and enjoying remembering all of this great stuff.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:11:36

Thank you so much, Michael, for sharing your expertise with us today on the on this remarkable trip from Marquette and Jolliet. I really appreciate you taking your time and sharing your knowledge with us.

Michael Douglass 1:11:48

It’s been my pleasure, Dean, and I hope that we can talk again and I wish you well. Thank you.

Dean Klinkenberg 1:12:04

And now it’s time for the Mississippi Minute. If you’re interested in events related to the 350th anniversary of the Marquette and Jolliet expedition, I have a few recommendations to help you out. The city of Prairie du Chien Wisconsin, which was built on a wide plane just about the confluence of the Wisconsin and Mississippi Rivers is commemorating the anniversary from June 15th to 18th, 2023. Events coincide with the annual Prairie Villa Rendezvous which includes reenactors as well as a flea market and other events. Events kick off on Thursday evening, June 15.th with live music. Then kick into full gear and on Friday. Look for demonstrations on traditional crafts, an Art Fair, tours, live music, lots of foods, some dancing, canoe rides, an enthralling beard contest and much more. If you have trouble finding a place to stay at Prairie du Chien or across the river in the McGregor Marquette area, don’t fret it. La Crosse, Wisconsin and Dubuque, Iowa are each about an hour’s drive from Prairie du Chien and they have a lot of rooms. You may also be able to find a place to stay in places in between. If you want to venture out and explore some of the sites associated with the expedition on your own, the Overlook of the confluence of the Wisconsin and Mississippi Rivers is a must see. The best view is from Pike’s Peak State Park in Iowa but Wyalusing State Park in Wisconsin is also exceptional. They’re both just gorgeous spots, and they will probably be busy places over that weekend. You can also take a scenic drive along the Mississippi via the Great River Road and along Highway 133 which offers some good views of the Wisconsin River in stretches. Both of them parallel parts of the route that Jolliet and Marquette followed. A little further south the Illiniwek Village State Historic Site in northeast Missouri, just south of the Des Moines River, is the likely site of the first Illinois village encountered by Marquette and Jolliet. That site has a really good interpretive trail with lots of markers and a few reconstructions of structures that were likely at that site. It’s well worth the stop. I’ll put links to all of these in the show notes. Go to MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast and select this episode and you’ll see links to all of these and other things mentioned during this episode. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the series on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss out on future episodes. I offer the podcast for free but when you support the show with a few bucks through Patreon, you helped keep the program going. Just go to patreon.com/DeanKlinkenberg. If you want to know more about the Mississippi River, check out my books. I write the Mississippi Valley Traveler guide books for people who want to get to know the Mississippi better. I also write the Frank Dodge mystery series set at certain places along the river. Find them wherever books are sold. The Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast is written and produced by me, Dean Klinkenberg. Original Music by Noah Fence. See you next time.