In this episode of the podcast, we wade into food traditions in the places along the Mississippi. Chef Regina Charboneau, a 7th generation Natchezian and author of Mississippi Current Cookbook: A Culinary Journey Down America’s Greatest River, is our guide as we talk about food traditions in places as different as Minnesota and Natchez, Mississippi. Chef Regina talks about her path to a stellar culinary career that has included owning a popular restaurant in San Francisco and her role as culinary director for the American Queen Steamboat Company. We talk about the foods that have inspired her and how her love of regional food is helping me reshape the menus on river cruises. We also spend a few minutes getting to the essentials of enjoying catfish.
In the Mississippi Minute, we continue the food theme. I talk with St. Louis’ Andy Fair about gelato, sourcing local food, and his dreams for the restaurant he owns, the Gelateria Coffee Company.
Show Notes
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Transcript
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, gelato, catfish, natchez, mississippi, river, biscuits, flavors, food, menu, recipes, years, love, talk, pierogi, cook, queen, cooking, place, put
SPEAKERS
Dean Klinkenberg, Chef Regina Charboneau, Andy Fair
Chef Regina Charboneau 00:00
I’m telling you catfish and hush puppies and you know, just hard to beat, fried in cornmeal.
Dean Klinkenberg 00:27
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast. I’m Dean Klinkenberg. And I’ve been exploring the deep history and rich culture of the people and places along America’s greatest river, the Mississippi, since 2007. Join me as I go deep into the characters and places along the river and occasionally wander into other stories from the Midwest and other rivers. Read the episode show notes and get more information on the Mississippi at MississippiValleyTraveler.com. Let’s get going.
Dean Klinkenberg 00:58
Welcome to Episode 28 of the Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast. In this episode, we’re talking about food. I’ve been wanting to do one of these episodes for a while and I’m hoping you’ll have a lot more of these down the road. But today we’re going to begin the discussion of food along the Mississippi Valley with a nice discussion with Chef Regina Charboneau from Natchez, Mississippi. She’s the author of “Mississippi Current Cookbook: A Culinary Journey Down America’s Greatest River”. It’s a collection of recipes, regional recipes organized as complete menus. So you can follow an entire menu if you want or you can choose a particular recipe that suits your fancy. We talk about what inspired her to put together a book like this, her background as a chef, and she does have a long and impressive resume as a chef in multiple places. She’s also the culinary director now for the American Queen Steamboat Company. So we talked some about her work with the Steamboat Company and how her interest in regional foods is helping to reshape somewhat the menu that passengers get to enjoy on cruises. We’ll talk a little bit about catfish. It’s kind of a one of the iconic foods of places along the river. So we have a nice discussion about catfish and it’s many ways to enjoy it. She’s a big fan of cocktails and Natchez, Mississippi is home, or is well known, for its cocktails. And we’ll talk a little bit about that. And we just generally have fun with our conversation about how to enjoy food. In the Mississippi Minute, I’m going to continue the food theme. I had a conversation with a local restaurant owner, Andy Fair, from the Gelateria Coffee Company in St. Louis. And we talk about gelato and his interest in sourcing as much food locally as possible. So stick around for that. Well, thank you to everyone who has shown me some love through Patreon. If you want to join that community, it’s at patreon.com/DeanKlinkenberg. That support helps keep this podcast going and it’s much much appreciated. If you don’t want to join the Patreon community, you can show me some love by buying me a coffee and I do drink a substantial amount of coffee, so all the help there is appreciated. So now let’s get on with the interview.
Dean Klinkenberg 03:41
Chef Regina Charboneau has been named “Queen of Biscuits” by the New York Times and other outlets. However, her knowledge of food goes way beyond biscuits. She’s considered one of the premier southern chefs in America. Regina is a Mississippi maven. Born and raised in Natchez, Mississippi, the river runs through her veins. She’s worked as a camp cook in the bush of Alaska, created and owned restaurants in San Francisco, been Chef de Cuisine on a set of luxurious vintage railway cars, served as a culinary director of the American Queen riverboat and written four cookbooks, I think now, right? Everywhere she went she brought Mississippi and Southern cooking with her. She returned to her native Natchez in 2001 and purchased the historic home, Twin Oaks, where she took time off to raise her two sons. In 2014 she published “Mississippi Current Cookbook: A Culinary Journey Down America’s Greatest River”. And that same year she restored King’s Tavern and in 2019 she opened Regina’s Kitchen, where she hosted biscuit classes, Southern cooking classes and a popular restaurant and wine bar. She is now retired, kind of sorta, which means working on her fifth cookbook, doing more culinary consulting and guest appearances and speaking engagements. Welcome to the podcast.
Chef Regina Charboneau 04:58
Thank you for having me. Anything Mississippi River, I’m all in. So I love what you’re doing.
Dean Klinkenberg 05:07
Tell me a little bit first about how your love for food and cooking sparked. Where did that begin for you?
Chef Regina Charboneau 05:15
Well, I grew up in Natchez and my mother, I’m seventh generation Natchezian. And my mother is from a very long line of great hostesses but terrible cooks. But she married my father who was from south Louisiana. He was raised by, his dad died when he was young, and he was raised by his aunts, and they were all fabulous cooks. So he was the cook in our family. He loved food and was so good at it. So I grew up with a lot of Louisiana influence. And of course, being in Natchez, you know, the fried chicken and biscuits and everything southern here. So, you know, from an early age, food has been really a big part of my life. And big family. I’m one of nine children, my mother was one of nine. So big holidays and spreads of food, and you know festivities and just a big loving family. Which I think what drew me to food and sharing food is just that sense of being together, and then, you know, all at a table, it’s just.. you can’t beat that feeling. So it’s kind of been my passion forever. I did go to several southern universities and had a better time at each one. But the whole time, I really wanted to cook.
Dean Klinkenberg 06:48
Do you remember, like, one of the earliest times when you cooked a meal for other people? Like, what did you cook? What was that like?
Chef Regina Charboneau 06:55
Oh, yes, actually, I can. And I think some of my siblings will never forget. I had not cooked before but we had a lady who worked for us who would cook a lot, several times a week. And then my father cooked a lot. And she was not, she would kind of go off the wagon. She had a bit of a drinking thing sometimes. And she was not showing up. And my father had been in a car accident and my mother couldn’t cook. So I was taking home economics at St. Mary’s Cathedral. So my mother said, I will pay you what I pay Alberta if you want to try to do dinner. And so the first thing I did was bring home these horrible home ec recipes. And there was just immediately an uprising like, we’re not going to eat this. This is the worst thing because we were accustomed to really good food. So then I just started cooking by feel and I just had been around it so much, and so I threw away those recipes and started making gumbo and you know, crawfish étouffée, I can make with my eyes closed. I mean, I just started doing the things that were familiar and then my father had a collection of Time Life Cookbooks and I was always intrigued about world cuisine and would read those cover to cover. You know, I made homemade wonton wrappers one time and did, you know, authentic Chinese food in Natchez, Mississippi in the ’60s. You know, I mean, I just tried everything and enjoyed cooking. Breadmaking was a bit more of a challenge. I remember the first time I made bread, it was you could use it as a doorstop. My father actually made a joke of it and shellacked it and used it as a doorstop as a joke. But I’m a quick study. I got past that pretty quick.
Dean Klinkenberg 09:04
We learn from our mistakes, right? Like, if you’re not making mistakes, you’re not trying.
Chef Regina Charboneau 09:08
That’s right.
Dean Klinkenberg 09:11
So when did you get the idea to write a book about the food traditions along the Mississippi River? How did that idea come about?
Chef Regina Charboneau 09:20
Well, if you, you know, kind of go back and you know, I went to Alaska. I cooked out in the bush of Alaska and saved money and went to La Verenne in Paris. I had been cooking and I did some very targeted courses there. And then, you know, had restaurants in San Francisco but when I came home and I think just being away, I loved, you learn…not even learn, I guess you get all of these feelings of what you’re missing and you don’t realize what you have until you’re gone from it. So, you know, I always tease that I spent 23 years trying to get away from Natche and then I spent the next 25 trying to get home. And so when I moved back, I go walking in the mornings and I would go down to the river. And it’s just so been something about the river and Natchez and watching it. It’s just so great. But I had a connection to when you mentioned the redone train cars. I did that for a gentleman named Christopher Kite. And he was a part of the group who was resurrecting the American Queen twelve to thirteen years ago. And they came to visit me and asked if I would consider helping them create the menus. And that was easy because they were basically doing New Orleans to Memphis. And I know that, you know, that’s my home turf, and easy to do. So I did that. But then when I was actually traveling on the river and not by car to those places, it’s just a totally different experience. But then when we expanded and started going to the upper Mississippi. It was just so apparent to me how the river is basically divided into three distinct sections when it comes to food. And you have the upper Mississippi and there’s so much Eastern European influence. And I knew this because my husband, Doug, of 42 years now is from Minneapolis. So we spend a lot of time in Minneapolis. So you have your Eastern European, your Polish, your German influence up there. Pierogi, and you know, cabbage, stuffed cabbage, and walleye. And, but then, so I say, that’s the upper Mississippi, basically Quad Cities to Minneapolis is upper and then right below that, and I call it Twain Country, so there to the confluence of the Arkansas River. And what happens is you go in the upper Mississippi, you have walleye and walnuts and you get to that, right at that confluence, you get to catfish and pecans and everything changes. And then from there from Hannibal to there is you know, what I called Twain Country. And then you get to Memphis and Memphis to The Bayou is, you know, is really the cuisine that I was more familiar with but they were so distinct. But even more interesting to me is, you know, I love culture, cultural influences and agriculture. And that was, you know, the people who settled in all of these areas had such an impact on the cuisine. So that’s what inspired me to write that book. And also, what I did was to make more current applications to a lot of these recipes. And my twist, like, instead of pierogi with potato and sour cream, and you know, an all white dish, I did in my book, “Mississippi Current”, I did sweet potato bacon pierogi with sauteed beet greens. So kind of added, you know, just a new twist to a lot of these traditional recipes. So, you know, I’ve had a busy 20 years at Twin Oaks and when COVID hit, and we just decided to not hang in there and to start selling things off and closing and retire. The American Queen reached out to me a couple of years ago to be their culinary ambassador and come on board and do some cooking demos. And when I was on board, I really felt more and more like these boats should really be doing what I did with my book. We really should, it should have a reflection and a sense of place. And the American Queen has a new president, Cindy D’Aoust, and John Wagner retired. And he was so supportive of me always and just, I consider him a dear friend. And there were a couple of presidents in between, but Cindy came on and we met and I made mention to her and she goes that is absolutely my vision. You know, let’s get this going. And we, you know, from the time she said ‘go’ and I started in February in May of this year. On all the boats I implemented menus that if you’re in Paducah, Kentucky it has a German influence and we get some bread that night for dinner from the German bakery there in Paducah, which has a great history. And that you know, and we have schnitzel and some other dishes and then we have some more, you know, it’s not all that, but it’s definitely influences and I on the top of each menu, I give a little brief history of why we’re doing that menu and what the influence and the people that influenced. You know, how many people really knew that the Sicilians came to New Orleans not through Ellis Island but years and years before, during the citrus trade. They literally brought citrus to Louisiana and to the islands, from Sicily. And so there’s a lot of Sicilian influence in New Orleans. And, so for me, it was fun that how can I be on the Mississippi River and do things that are not just fried chicken and things that people think of river cuisine, but the cuisine of the people who settled along the river. So you know, and it’s been because for me, I love food and to be able to create a menu and put Lobster Arancini in the menu and justify it because these people, you know, lived here. Lobster not so much. In fact, I’m, it’s been a battle, people have this thing about lobster on a cruise. And I just don’t think we should be serving lobster on the Mississippi River or the Ohio River. We may have to do it once a night just because there may be an uprising because they used to, there was a period with the American Queen that they offered it every night. And you know, so anyway, people are responding very well. And as I think I mentioned to you earlier, we just won a really prestigious award for going in this direction. So it’s yeah, it’s really fun.
Dean Klinkenberg 17:05
Well, it’s great. One of the things that I did really enjoy about your your book is that you have these, you’re inspired by traditional recipes, but you’re not just repeating them. So you take these ingredients that might have a home up in Minnesota or Louisiana or wherever. And then you add a twist or you change them into something slightly different. So it’s still respects that original source but then you’re modernizing it and giving us something new, and I thought that was really great. I love wild rice, I’m a big fan of wild rice and your cookbook has several new ideas for me on ways that I can use wild rice.
Chef Regina Charboneau 17:44
Yeah, I’ve got another one too. We have pretty much a vegan menu that when guests get on board the American Queen Voyages and if they’re vegan, there’s a menu that has every day a breakfast, lunch and dinner vegan option. And I do, because of the Native American influence up and down the river, the Ohio River and the Mississippi River. The upper Mississippi specifically, I do a wild rice bowl with roasted sweet potatoes and greens and what else is in there…It’s a really wonderful dish. And I do a Native American onion sauce that’s used in Native American cooking where the onion is cooked down so much to a puree that it’s very sweet. And you mix that with the wild rice. It’s a wonderful dish. I’ll have to send you the recipe.
Dean Klinkenberg 18:44
That sounds delicious, too. So, I think a lot of people probably associate one food mostly with the Mississippi. So let’s talk about that for just a second. And that’s catfish. Like pretty much anywhere you go along the Mississippi you’ll find catfish. But there are lots of different ways to prepare it. So what what are your thoughts on catfish? What do you like? How do you like to cook it?
Chef Regina Charboneau 19:06
You know and I think it’s in “Mississippi Current” you know? I’m pretty sure, yeah it’s there, I’ve got a recipe in there for catfish at breakfast. You sear it with apple smoked bacon and with the fried egg on top. I mean, that’s like real river cooking. And one of my favorite dishes I’ve been doing for a long, long time. When I was in France, the family I lived with spent time with, Arlette was from the south of France, and she was very much into coulis, like these really good fresh sauces made from fresh vegetables and so I loved her tomato coulis. So I do a smoked tomato coulis and then catfish in a cornmeal crust with a black-eyed pea vinaigrette. And that’s a wonderful dish. What else do I do with catfish? I mean, that’s the thing, it’s great on a poor boy whether it’s fried or sauteed. And you know what’s funny though, even though there is catfish all along the Mississippi River, you don’t see it on a menu till you hit Arkanas, the confluence of the Arkansas River and Memphis.
Dean Klinkenberg 20:30
Right. And then yeah, I had an experience I wasn’t expecting when I ate at an old cafe in Arkansas a few years ago. They asked a couple of questions when I ordered catfish. They wanted to know did I want farm-raised or river caught. And then they wanted to know if I wanted steak or fillet
Chef Regina Charboneau 20:47
Wow, I’m impressed by that.
Dean Klinkenberg 20:50
So I haven’t really encountered that very many times. But there are different ways to cut it. And I think probably farm-raised is the most common source for most restaurants, I would guess.
Chef Regina Charboneau 21:00
You know, we of course, tried to really support the Mississippi catfish farmers because they’ve had a struggle. The interesting thing about the river caught, it’s you don’t see that very often, actually. And I’m just trying to think of, oh I know, I was in Louisville and Maker’s Mark has a chef and his menu was blue cat, blue catfish, you know, one of the dishes for a dinner. When I saw the menu, I thought, well, that’s interesting because I remember my father going down….there was a man, Steve Stevens, that had a barge down under the hill and he lived on that, but he basically lived off of commercial fishing on the river. And that’s what people would go and get what they call blue cats or blue catfish. And I don’t really hear any of that anymore. Everything’s farm-raised. But that’s interesting. Definitely the steaks. A lot of people don’t like the bones, but it’s more economical. You know, the fillet of course is like anything, more expensive. So that’s interesting. Where in Arkansas?
Dean Klinkenberg 22:23
I have to look it up. But it was near the Arkansas River. I was with a group and we were on our way to put in on a boat ramp just below the last dam on the Arkansas River. Yeah. It’s interesting too, I think catfish is probably a little more flexible than we give it credit for.
Chef Regina Charboneau 22:23
It has a bad rap. I’ve dealt with it forever. But I sold it. It was on my menu at Regina’s at the Regis which was a very elegant restaurant in San Francisco. And when we do it with the smoked tomato coulis and the black-eyed pea vinaigrette on the boat, a lot of people order it. But it is, you know, a lot of people go, “catfish, I don’t know”. And, you know, it is muddy tasting depending on where it comes from. So the farm-raised, definitely toned it down a bit.
Dean Klinkenberg 23:15
Right. I tried a recipe a few years ago, I saw Alton Brown make a catfish ceviche. Oh, it was actually pretty good. I’d make it again. But I think that’s probably one where you need to have a pretty high quality farm-raised catfish.
Chef Regina Charboneau 23:32
Yeah, that’s interesting, yeah, I’ve done a lot with it. I’ve never thought about ceviche with it. So I have to try that. Yeah, I’m trying to think of any other you know, I’ll be honest, it’s so hard to beat a catfish fry. Every year for the tamale festival when my friend Julia Reid was living, her parents hosted a fish fry the Friday night of the event. We would all come, we did this kind of this roundtable thing. She invited her friends that were chefs and writers and it was always a great event but I’m telling you catfish and hush puppies and you know, just hard to beat fried in cornmeal.
Dean Klinkenberg 24:21
Absolutely. The cornmeal I think is the key to me too.
Chef Regina Charboneau 24:25
I think so too. The flour doesn’t cut it. Now my brother Peter, who has Biscuits and Blues in Natchez. He uses corn flour on his shrimp and on occasion I’ll be in and one of the cooks will use the corn flour and it’s like, no, you can’t. It’s not quite the same. It’s not bad, but it’s not quite the same. You need that crunch.
Dean Klinkenberg 24:49
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here interrupting myself. Just wanted to remind you that if you’d like to know more about the Mississippi River, check out my books. I write the Mississippi Valley Traveler Guide Books for people who want to get to know the river better. I also write the Frank Dodge mystery series set in places along the Mississippi. Read those books to find out how many different ways my protagonist Frank Dodge can get into trouble. My newest book “Mississippi River Mayhem” details some of the disasters and tragedies that happened along Old Man River. Find any of them wherever books are sold.
Dean Klinkenberg 25:24
So one thing I was wondering about too, as a native of Natchez, are their food traditions in Natchez that are a little different from its neighbors in the south?
Chef Regina Charboneau 25:37
Mostly liquor traditions. Natchez is known for having great parties and great cocktails. But, you know, it’s we do have, you know, we call Natchez “The Little Easy”. We do have more of a New Orleans influence than a Delta influence for sure. And I think a lot of that is so many of our ancestors here, like my great, great, great, great grandfather came from Mallorca, Spain and he was married to, his wife Melanie Adame, had French roots. She was first generation New Orleanian in New Orleans, but her father was from France. So they, you know, as they had, of course, we have to be real about the history and slaves, they really train them on French cooking. So, like New Orleans, there’s it’s a little bit of a high cuisine, not always country. I mean, not that every table didn’t have that Sunday fried chicken and tons of vegetables and rice and gravy. But there is definitely the influence like the shrimp and grits in a cream sauce. And a lot of seafood dishes are popular here. But entertaining, people entertain a lot in Natchez. So you see a little bit of everything, but you see trends, you know, I’m trying to think of the cookbook from Jackson, Mississippi, the Junior League did every year, I think it’s called “Come On In”. I always say every time a new Junior League Cookbook came out, the menus changed at cocktail parties, and it would be the trend. I’m happy to say that I, you know, when Regina’s Table at Twin Oaks came out, there were several, you know, I would see lots of my recipes at cocktail parties and then dinner parties. And then I did a book a few years ago, I guess it’s been three or four years now called Natchez Style. And they sell it at Stanton Hall in Longwood. It’s a beautiful, beautiful book. But it’s 26 of the tour homes in Natchez and I created a menu for each home that reflected the house or the history of the house or the people that live in it. I know all the people and every menu, every recipe I mean sorry, every book I’ve ever done it’s just the way I love to cook. Every book, its menus, a complete menu with the recipes because I feel like people don’t know how to pair food and make things go together. And I feel like that’s one of the things from cooking for so long that I do well. And I really enjoy that. Now the new book I’m working on may in the very back have menu suggestions with the recipes but it’s kind of my whole my life in food. So I’ve divided the book into six chapters which are six courses and so each chapter will have 10 or 12 recipes for that course. But it’s really kind of my life as I compare it to six courses you know with soup being comforting and amuse-bouche is kind of experimenting, put your toe in a little bit to see what the meal is going to be like and side dishes I went all over the place. Entrees to me, as you know family and just family in that comfort family and friends. And I feel like until the American Queen Voyage’s started working me so hard, but I’m loving it. I was in the dessert phase so I’m still headed towards the dessert phase in my life.
Dean Klinkenberg 29:49
That’s a good phase to be in.
Chef Regina Charboneau 29:51
Yeah, yeah. So it’s fun.
Dean Klinkenberg 29:54
So the next time in Natchez, what drink should I be looking out for or should I have?
Chef Regina Charboneau 29:59
Well, let’s see, you’ll have to come have a drink on my porch. You know, I have my cooking school on Franklin Street. And I’ve had, I’ve hung on to that even though I’m busy with the boats and I don’t get to do it every week. I do it, I do my brunch class every time I am in town because that’s what I love. And what I’d like to continue to do until I’m not here anymore. And but anyway, I do a bourbon coffee punch. That is really popular, really good. I have actually on the American Queen Voyages, I have created, and not even that I’ve created because some of these cocktails are traditional, but I have a cocktail all along the river like on a voyage we’ll have a cocktail of the day. That is offered, that is again a sense of place. Now I do the cocktail that we do when we’re in Natchez. It’s the Natchez style Hemingway daiquiri. So it’s a Hemingway daiquiri with a little twist and a little more booze in it. And that’s the Natchez twist.
Dean Klinkenberg 31:20
So one of the things I’m curious about. So I’m lucky enough, I get to travel around a lot. Obviously, most of that time is along the Mississippi. Sometimes I get a little discouraged because you go visit places and you can see the homogenization in food culture. Are you concerned at all that we’re going to lose regional food traditions? Or what can we all do to work harder to find those local food traditions that still exist?
Chef Regina Charboneau 31:46
You know, support these little restaurants that are doing home cooking or regional cooking. And, you know, I just, we just did a thing, it’s kind of interesting. And you say, you know, I’m the Queen of Biscuits, well I get a call that IHOP is now putting biscuits on their menu. And Natchez, I don’t know if you know this, is the biscuit capital of the world. I claim that like 20 years ago, when we started a biscuit festival because I just for years, since I’ve been home in Natchez, I work really hard to get more people here. And it’s really changed a lot. And I mean, our food festival this year had 700 people attend. When we light our Christmas tree right after Thanksgiving, we have 600 or 700 people. We have thousands of people for the Balloon Race, I mean, so Natchez really does, you know, brings people in. But so anyway, IHOP because of the biscuit capital they wanted to do… so they made Natchez, IHOP USA for the day. And I really am going, you know, I don’t know if I want to be connected to IHOP you know. But then again, I thought, you know, why not and what they’re doing, and I’m telling you, they did a really good job with their biscuits they’ve developed. And it’s nice that they’re putting a southern twist on their menu, and they’re very into it in all their press releases and everything they did. They talked about how American, how Southern, the biscuit is and that they needed it on their menus. And so that’s good. And maybe we will see a trend with with chain restaurants trying to fit into their communities more. I mean, that’s maybe wishful thinking on my part, because I know they have to do a lot of cookie cutter things. But you know, it’s such a competitive world, the world of food. Plus so many people cook so well at home. I mean, you can get on Instagram and come up with seven new ideas for dinner that take five minutes to do or interesting little hacks in the kitchen. So I think they’re gonna you know, these more homogenized brands are going to have to up their game to stay competitive. You know, and I tell you what I worry about most is just for people and I think about families and I’m so glad you know my boys are grown, but oh my god, you know, the cost of food is really just crazy right now and I worry about that for families. And so I do think people cook at home for a lot of reasons. But I think with Covid it became a passion, right, with people and I know if I book, you know if I post a cooking class, it gets booked right away.
Dean Klinkenberg 35:02
I have to ask since I have the Queen of Biscuits here, if you had like just one or two quick tips to offer on what anybody can do to make a better biscuit, you know, what would you suggest?
Chef Regina Charboneau 35:14
Okay, go to ReginasKitchen.com. That’s my website. And there’s a video when I was on the Hallmark Channel. And I think I’ve got another link to a video when I was on NBC. But the key to my biscuits is I use a tea towel. So I don’t make a mess, your hands don’t touch the dough. The key to making biscuits is, the two mistakes people make – they overmix them and they don’t roll and fold the dough to create layers. And they roll them out too thin. Those are some common mistakes. So if you see my tea towel technique, it’ll help your biscuit making and your clean up will be easier.
Dean Klinkenberg 36:04
I’m in favor all of those.
Dean Klinkenberg 37:20
So this is kind of a little different take on the whole regional food thing, too. I used to joke at times that if somebody from Minnesota married somebody from Louisiana, would there really be room for like lutefisk etouffee? That’s never going to happen? But do you see like more mixing and merging of regional traditions?
Chef Regina Charboneau 37:47
Well, yeah, I married somebody from Minneapolis. And, you know, the first Thanksgiving I spent with his family, everything on the plate was white, you know, it just freaked me out. But that’s where, you know, like he loves pierogi. And my compromise to make pierogi was to put sweet potato and bacon in them. And I think the first time I made pierogi for him, I put andouille sausage in the potatoes. And he liked it. You know, he liked it better. So, I mean, 42 years, he’s still liking my twist on things. But, I mean, I think ingredients are everywhere. You know, now, I’ll tell you my biggest thing and my next phase with American Queen Voyages is to start getting more and more of the ingredients on board. And pre arranged with farmers markets, and, you know, that when we’re in, let’s say, Cape Girardeau or wherever, we can get tomatoes brought to the boat and, you know, from the farmers market and just a few things. But what we’re doing, this is kind of a neat thing. We, and this was Cindy our president, Cindy D’Aoust, came up with and then with shore excursions, we all implemented it. But when we’re in Natchez, we get the Natchez coffee shop, I mean sorry, the Natchez donut shop. We buy donuts for all the guests and the crew. And this is what I love about being connected to the riverboats and what it means to all these small towns along the river. The American Queen and the American Countess are both in Natchez probably around 30 times a year, each boat. One on Thursday, one on Friday, and sometimes different times. So if you think about buying $200, $250 worth of donuts, what that means to a small business. So we are very committed and this is why I love this company. We are not just committed, we love our guests and we want to service them, but we are very committed to our partners. You know, our ports and the riverboats are huge economic impact along the river to these towns that don’t have industry don’t have a lot. And so what you know, when you think about, they get water, they have garbage removed, the crew goes to the Walmart, they go to the, you know, the guests go to the restaurants and the shops. And then so you know, we buy from Kirchoff’s Bakery in Paducah. We buy the bread, the German bread and Vicksburg, we buy cinnamon rolls from the bakery. So, and that’s what I will continue to develop those relationships as well. Now, as vendors, we’re like any big business, you know, you rely on your food purveyors, that can you know, we feed a lot of people, so we get big orders. But to really get out there and find these people along the river that have products on a different river. We were on the Columbia River and I went to a farmers market and there was a lady there who had the most beautiful flowers. She grew cut flowers. And so to be able to buy those and arrange those on the boat, instead of having roses that were grown in Ecuador, whatever. You know, that’s an impact, not just for that business but for our guests to go, these are locally grown flowers. And when you talk about the Sazerac when I was in the Pacific Northwest, this was fun. I on the Columbia River, I you know, I can’t get so far away from my roots. So when I was going to do a cocktail demo, I was going to do us a Sazerac. But I got all the ingredients locally. So there was Portland, Oregon, the bitters, I didn’t get you know, Peychaud’s bitters. I got orange bitters from the Bitter Housewife, the cutest company. And then I got local rye whiskey from a local distiller. And then in Astoria, they actually there’s a distillery right downtown that makes absinthe. So I was able to make a Empress version of the Sazerac but using all local ingredients, which was a lot of fun. But then you know, they do, they have the wonderful up there, they have the butterfly pea flowers, and they have gin, you know. I don’t know if you’ve seen the Empress Gin or whatever. It’s this vibrant blue. And when you put lemon in this gin, the reaction with the flower turns it purple. So instead of doing like a French 75, we did the lemon syrup but we used that gin. And when you poured in the lemon syrup, it became purple. So we did a little tribute to Prince. So Purple Rain. But, you know, it’s just fun to get out and find these local ingredients and figure out ways to use them.
Dean Klinkenberg 43:37
And you’re right. I mean, that could have a powerful impact for you know, a company like the American Queen, that’s buying for a lot of people to source as much as they can from local communities. That’s, that’s a great thing. I’m really happy to hear that. So I’m mindful of the time. I think we’re just about out of time here. And so I just want to ask that if people want to keep up with with your work and what’s going on with you. What’s the best way for them to do that?
Chef Regina Charboneau 44:03
Well, my Instagram is chefregina and my website which I try to post recipes. I’ve been kind of bad. I’ve been had a busy year, but it’s Regina’sKitchen.com. And, and really, if you ever want to travel the Mississippi River, come see me. It’s AQvoyages.com, American Queen Voyages, and I’m very proud of to be affiliated with the company. It’s been just an amazing experience. And I look forward to continuing to refine our product and welcome guest and so maybe you need to come on a trip with me.
Dean Klinkenberg 44:49
I would love that. Yeah, it’s been awhile. Yeah, I would love that. Yes. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. And there was something else. I’ll post links in the show notes to all your resources so people can follow that. And yeah, have a have a beautiful day. Thank you for sharing with us.
Chef Regina Charboneau 45:13
Okay. All right, see you on the Mississippi.
Dean Klinkenberg 45:25
And now it’s time for the Mississippi Minute. As I mentioned at the top of the show, in this episode, we’re gonna do something a little different, and it’s gonna be more like the Mississippi 15 minutes. I love the collection of small businesses along the Great River Road and the communities along the river and it’s been my goal all along to do brief profiles of as many of these as I can. So we’re going to kick it off with a conversation I had with Andy Fair, who is the owner of the Gelateria, a coffee company in St. Louis. So we’re going to talk about gelato and what makes it different from ice cream. And we’ll also talk a little bit about his approach to sourcing as much locally as he possible and using seasonal ingredients. Well, I’m here in the Gelateria Coffee Company in St. Louis with Andy Fair. Andy, thanks for talking with me this morning.
Andy Fair 46:18
Oh, you’re welcome, Dean. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Dean Klinkenberg 46:20
So we’re talking about gelato today. It’s a pleasure to be here in your own place. I wanted to pick your brain on gelato as you know. Sure. Gelateria. It’s kind of in your name. What is the difference between gelato and ice cream? Let’s start there.
Andy Fair 46:35
Okay, well, there’s essentially three differences. The first being that gelato has, overall, less fat content in the mix. The second being that traditionally there are regional differences for gelato. But generally speaking, when we talk about gelato, we’re talking about gelato that originated from Sicily, or the south of Italy. And there’s no egg in that gelato. And the third prominent difference would be what’s called overrun. And that’s the amount of air that is incorporated into the gelato as you’re churning it.
Dean Klinkenberg 47:15
So would it have a less airy texture than ice cream then?
Andy Fair 47:18
Yes, it’s a it’s a thicker, that’s why it tastes really creamy even though there’s not a lot of fat in it. Because there’s less air whipped into it.
Dean Klinkenberg 47:30
So is that how the cheaper ice cream brands get by with making their ice cream less expensive as they just whip more air into it?
Andy Fair 47:36
That is correct. Yeah, the really cheap brands have a high percentage of overrun.
Dean Klinkenberg 47:41
So how is that it has less fat? So ice cream, I guess, is essentially made with real cream. Correct?
Andy Fair 47:47
It’s not really 100% cream. A lot of times what we eat is more akin to ice milk. Especially with you know, you talk about how much sugar is incorporated and sugar has two purposes. It lowers the overall sensation of ice crystals as well as sweetening. And you can use other sugars too, for example, we use dextrose here and dextrose is really good at preventing ice crystals, but not very good at sweetening. So when I have a flavor, as we’re inventing flavors, that gets a little too sweet, I can cut down the sugar and bump up the dextrose and that will keep the consistency the same overall but make it less sweet on the palate.
Dean Klinkenberg 48:35
All right, interesting. I had no idea there were so many variables. I just thought you’d take you like a dairy product and whip it up with some some kind of flavor element and freeze it. There you go, you got gelato.
Andy Fair 48:35
So gelato. What we do here is about… Sorry, I have to do a little math in my head. It’s 5% cream to whole milk. Generally when we’re talking about dairy flavors, the non dairy milks that we use – oat milk for example. We kind of cheat in a way because we use barista dairy milk and barista dairy milk has oil mixed into it, emulsified into it, in order to help recreate that milk sensation fat on the tongue. You know fat is flavor, it’s also texture.
Dean Klinkenberg 49:29
So that’s how you make the gelato vegan friendly or non dairy friendly is with primarily with the barista oatmeal milk.
Andy Fair 49:36
Correct. We have one flavor that we use with coconut milk. And then we have a whole line of sorbettos, too, which would be milk free.
Dean Klinkenberg 49:44
All right. So tell me, how do you make a sorbetto then? How’s that different from gelato?
Andy Fair 49:51
It’s essentially you’re just replacing the liquid content with water.
Dean Klinkenberg 49:58
So it’s frozen fruit or whatever. So what are some of the more unusual flavors you’ve been able to put together for your gelatos here? I know like, if you look at the case, there are some standard flavors, usually strawberry or chocolate, but then there’s some interesting variations.
Andy Fair 50:14
Yeah, we’ve done. So my two favorite, most recent flavors that we’ve done are seasonal produce flavors. We did corn towards the middle of the summer and that was a lot of fun and I learned a lot. That was our first time doing corn and I’d wanted to do it for a long time. And then we also were able to get some local pawpaws. And using that in the gelato has been a lot of fun. Being able to use the local ingredients as part of the repertoire, if you will, is a lot of fun.
Dean Klinkenberg 50:50
Yeah, I had a chance to to get a pint of the pawpaw gelato and it was delicious. Not real sweet, you know, not overly sweet but very flavorful.
Andy Fair 50:59
Right? I had toyed around with putting a little more pawpaw in there or less. But we have a little bit still. And actually, I don’t know if I can get any more at this point. There’s a guy that I know over off of River Des Peres who has a yard farm. And he supplies me with different fruits and vegetables throughout the year. Not a lot, just occasionally. He has two papaw trees. One’s a Susquehanna and the other I can’t remember the varietals.
Dean Klinkenberg 51:34
If you did a blind taste testing can you tell the difference between them? Do you suppose?
Andy Fair 51:38
I don’t think so. Yeah, I can tell you the difference if I could touch it, because the Susquehanna is so much bigger than the other varieties. But he also does, we should be getting some figs from him soon. And we’re using his fennel this year which I was talking about earlier.
Dean Klinkenberg 52:01
So I know you do as much as you can to source from local producers. It’s not always possible for everything to do that. But you are working in more and more local produce and products as much as you can.
Andy Fair 52:15
Yes, I try to buy local or at least from local suppliers, purveyors as much as possible. We’re really fortunate to have, this is kind of like a shameless plug for my friend, but there’s a company here in St. Louis called Eat Here St. Louis. And my friend Preston bought that from, it was started by a guy named Andy Ayers, who used to own Riddles Penultimate, if you remember, on Delmar. And Andy sold the restaurant to his kids. That’s hearsay. I think that’s what happened. And then got out and started sourcing from local farmers because Andy was always a very big proponent of using local as much as possible. He was one of the first people to ever have Ozark Forest Mushrooms on his menu, like a regular staple, like that had its own place. And what a great guy. And so what Andy started doing was compiling produce and other food goods from local farmers and then putting them in a central location and delivering them to restauranteurs. It’s really difficult to try to manage you know, a Rolodex if you will, of a bunch of local farmers to get you know, your onions from here and your eggs from here and you know, your pawpaws from right here. And that company kind of changed that for local restauranteurs a little bit. There’s a price point increase just because they have to do the legwork. You’re paying the middleman but I personally find great value in that. And so anyway, Preston bought Eat Here St. Louis, and that allows us access now….
Dean Klinkenberg 53:58
Because like as a small business, it would be nearly impossible to have like 150 different suppliers and manage at that level.
Andy Fair 54:06
Exactly. And you have you know, Preston deals with people who I could deal with. It’s just like this, I mean, Buttonwood Farms, for example, I can order Buttonwood eggs from Buttonwood but I have a hard time meeting his minimum whereas with Preston, I can meet his minimum a lot easier because we’re already getting the eggs and then I can add other fun stuff onto it that I might not have been able to get otherwise.
Dean Klinkenberg 54:32
Interesting. Well, let’s get back to the gelato for just a second. I didn’t realize until fairly recently that gelato has a shelf life. So how long is it fresh and creamy, delicious and how do you know when it’s starting to lose its peak flavor?
Andy Fair 54:45
Well, it depends on what temperature you store it at. So when I mentioned earlier the lower quantity of overall cream and no egg yolk for example, which again cuts back on overall fat content, but it also, you lose some of the emulsifying properties from eggs and less overrun. What you end up with is a product that you have to serve at a warmer temperature than you would ice cream. So gelato is typically served anywhere from eight degrees Fahrenheit to 13 degrees Fahrenheit. Whereas ice cream, you can pull directly out of your deep freezer and scoop it and put it in a bowl and pretty much eat it. So the one good thing about that though, is that gelato you can put in a deep freeze and it will last a little bit longer. It’s a tricky question is what I’m getting at. It depends on what temperature it’s stored. The other thing about gelato is people generally see it and it’s you know, displayed in a case and it’s open air, which allows for oxidation and that is decreasing the overall shelf life. So we really try to burn through it, sell it in about four days or less.
Dean Klinkenberg 55:58
So when it starts to lose, it’s past its peak, as I understand it, you start to notice more ice crystals in it?
Andy Fair 56:07
The ice crystals, you get from temperature variation, so inconsistencies in your temperature. So a freeze, a thaw, a freeze, a thaw, which we really do our best here to mitigate. My gelato display cases are over 25 years old. You know, the equipment that we’re using here is, we’re doing the best that we can with what we have. You would notice it a lot more in your home freezer, unless you have a very excellent home freezer.
Dean Klinkenberg 56:38
Well, I bring it up because and I won’t name the place but I went to a place that served gelato a few months back and I was surprised at the texture of it. It had that kind of icy, you can taste the ice crystals in it. It was not nearly as pleasing as the creamy texture you normally get in gelato. So gelato can sort of, it does have a shelf life. There are nuances and what that’s like but it can lose its creaminess and pass it’s peak in durability.
Andy Fair 57:07
It will, sometimes, it will destabilize itself. It will fall out of emulsification on certain flavors. You get a little separation. But really temperature control is the biggest thing and minimizing the oxidation. I learned a good technique recently about cleaning up the pans and maintaining the display and kind of instead of letting it all spread out. You kind of like compress it together on one side of the pan to minimize exposure. Which I don’t know why I never thought of before. I guess I thought ice cream was like just set it and forget it, but it’s not. So much to learn.
Dean Klinkenberg 57:54
So speaking of learning. So there’s a lot more to the Gelateria than just gelato. If somebody stops by here, what else can they expect?
Andy Fair 58:02
Well, we have a great, I like to think of the Gelateria as an Italian bar in the traditional sense. So in the morning, you get coffees, pastries. We house roast coffee. We have a nice variety of espresso drinks here. We also do batch brew and pour overs. We have a great selection of teas, who we get from local suppliers, such as Big Heart Tea Company, a female owned business, and Teatopia a black owned business in St. Louis. And both of those people have excellent teas. Reginald at Teatopia is a whiz. He’s so passionate about tea. I love it. So we also do breakfast sandwiches in the morning that we make on our house made brioche and an array, variety of baked goods. We do everything in house that we’re able to. And we try to really limit you know, we want to do croissants but at this point in time,we don’t have the capabilities to do laminated dough. I want to get you your kouign-amann, that I still remember. Every once in a while I think about how we could do it, but we are limited by our preparation space at this point. So we, you know, we kind of double down on brioche because we’re able to do brioche. We do it really really well. And so you see it in a lot of our baked goods.
Dean Klinkenberg 59:35
And you do focaccia really well too. So after the breakfast menu, you’ve got amazing sandwiches for lunch on focaccia breads, and yeah, soups and salads.
Andy Fair 59:44
Yeah. You know, we did a grilled cheese and soup last fall and through the winter that was a lot of fun. Try to keep both, you know, some vegetarian and vegan options for people. I’m a big fan of a green salad. So I like having that as a menu option. We are again, kind of limited on space, so we’re doing the best we can with what we have. But you would see that in a traditional Italian bar. And we have applied for our liquor license, well we are in the process of applying for our liquor license. And hope to add beer and wine in the future. That will be draft only. So we’re not going to do bottle service or cans of beer or anything like that. It will be just draft you can get a carafe of the house red or white.
Dean Klinkenberg 1:00:32
So, do you have an idea about which wine will pair best with specific types of gelato?
Andy Fair 1:00:39
Yeah. We have even the option to do boozy gelato as well, which could be fun. I know Clementines in town does a really good job with boozy ice cream. And I don’t think we would try to make it our niche. But we could have a couple of flavors. The one thing I’m really excited for is caffe corretto, which is a shot of espresso with grappa or a bit of amaro or something like that on the side, which would be coffee corrected.
Dean Klinkenberg 1:01:14
Well, all right. Well, thanks so much for talking to me this morning, Andy, appreciate it. Any other plugs or anything else you want to mention?
Andy Fair 1:01:22
No, I think, you know, this is just our regular neighborhood place open every day, eight o’clock every morning. Open until at least eight at night. And when we get alcohol that could change. I don’t foresee us staying open later than 10. But we really just want to be a staple of the community. The third space so to speak.
Dean Klinkenberg 1:01:25
Right? So it is for me already. So thanks for talking me this morning, Andy, I really appreciate it.
Andy Fair 1:01:51
Glad to be here, Dean.
Dean Klinkenberg 1:01:53
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the series on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss out on future episodes. I offer the podcast for free but when you support the show with a few bucks through Patreon, you helped keep the program going. Just go to patreon.com/DeanKlinkenberg. If you want to know more about the Mississippi River, check out my books. I write the Mississippi Valley Traveler Guide Books for people who want to get to know the Mississippi better. I also write the Frank Dodge mystery series at certain places along the river. Find them wherever books are sold. The Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast is written and produced by me, Dean Klinkenberg. Original Music by Noah Fence. See you next time.
