This year marks a major milestone, not just along the Mississippi but for conservation efforts across the United States. In June, the Upper Mississippi National Wildlife and Fish Refuge will celebrate its 100th anniversary. In this episode, I talk with Sabrina Chandler, Refuge Manager and Hallie Shulz, Visitor Services Manager about the past, present and future of the refuge. We talk about the early years, about the tasks the early managers faced to establish the refuge. We also talk about how the refuge’s conservation mission and public use have changed over time. We praise the thousands of volunteers, many organized as part of one of the Friends groups, who help care for these precious public lands. The refuge has been a success by nearly any measure, but they still face significant threats, particularly from climate change and invasive species. Still, this is a year to celebrate, so we finish by highlighting a few of the events happening this summer to mark the refuge’s centennial.
In the Mississippi Minute, I give a shout out to many other federal refuges that protect land and water along the Mississippi River.
Show Notes
Upper Mississippi River National Wildlife and Fish Refuge
List of Events celebrating the refuge’s centennial
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Transcript
41. Upper Miss Refuge Centennial
Sun, May 19, 2024 3:45PM • 1:09:06
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
refuge, river, mississippi, floodplain, years, places, refuges, people, national wildlife refuge, upper, sabrina, habitat, conservation, mississippi river, la crosse, wildlife service, corps, manage, hallie, resource
SPEAKERS
Sabrina Chandler, Dean Klinkenberg, Hallie Schultz
Sabrina Chandler 00:00
Everybody knows the Mississippi River. And when they get here and they see it and they know it’s open to the public and you can actually enjoy it, I think that’s a really compounding thing that has really impactful on me to see. Especially our international visitors and how this place has that impact on them as well.
Dean Klinkenberg 00:42
Welcome to the Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast. I’m Dean Klinkenberg. And I’ve been exploring the deep history and rich culture of the people and places along America’s greatest river, the Mississippi, since 2007. Join me as I go deep into the characters and places along the river and occasionally wander into other stories from the Midwest and other rivers. Read the episode show notes and get more information on the Mississippi at MississippiValleyTraveler.com. Let’s get going.
Dean Klinkenberg 01:15
Welcome to Episode 41 of the Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast. Well, we’ve got a busy stretch here coming up as we start to slide into summer. And it certainly feels like summer here today, as I’m recording this in St. Louis, on Sunday, May 19, it’s already about 90 degrees. So looks like we’re probably in for a long hot summer this year. So what better time then to get out and enjoy some outdoor time along the Mississippi River. And I’ve got a couple of books now that you can take with you that are fresh, freshly updated or brand new hot off the presses. This week, my natural history guide “The Wild Mississippi: A State-by-State Guide to the River’s Natural Wonders” releases officially on Tuesday, May 21. So you can find it anywhere books are sold, go to your favorite bookstore. Order a copy there, however you prefer to get your books. I also just published the third edition of my “Road Tripping the Great River Road” book. The guide for the upper half of the Mississippi River. Freshly revised and updated, I think you’ll find that a good companion to “The Wild Mississippi.” But Wild Mississippi focuses on the outdoors experiences while Road Tripping really focuses on the experiences of driving along the river. So an emphasis on museums and cultural sites and where to eat and stay. So a good pair of books to have. Well in this episode, we’re not going to talk about those books. We’re going to talk about something else that’s a big deal this year. This year marks the 100th anniversary, the centennial, of the Upper Mississippi National Wildlife and Fish Refuge. In this episode, I talk with Sabrina Chandler and Hallie Schultz from the refuge. Sabrina Chandler is the Refuge Manager and Hallie Schultz is the Visitor Services Manager. And we have a nice conversation, really going over the broad history of the refuge itself. So we talk a little bit about those early years and some of the work that had to be done to establish the refuge in the first place. The conservation mission of the refuge and how that’s changed over time. The help they get from the various friends groups along the river that provide critical support. How public use has grown and changed over time, and some of the challenges facing the refuge in the future, from things like climate change and invasive species. If you have any doubts about the importance of refuge lands, just take a look at what the Mississippi river looks like in the 261 miles from Wabashaw down to Rock Island, and then go south of the Quad Cities and take a look at what the river is like. The refuge has preserved a tremendous amount of habitat and backwater habitats. Hasn’t been easy, but it’s provided a legacy for future generations to still be able to, to connect to and enjoy the river. There are a lot of events going on this year to mark the centennial and I’ll include a link in the show notes to a website that is tracking all of that. The refuge itself, they have some events they host directly and one of them coming up is June 22nd at the Visitor Center at Brice Prairie. You can go to the refuge website or the link in the show notes to find out more about that event and all the other things going on and maybe I will see you there.
Dean Klinkenberg 04:43
Thanks to all of you who show me some love through Patreon. Your support keeps this podcast alive and I’m extremely grateful for that. If you want to know how to join the Patreon community go to patreon.com/DeanKlinkenberg. One of the benefits is early access to this podcast, Patreon supporters get to listen a couple days before everybody else. If Patreon is not your thing, but you’d still like to show a little support, well, you can buy me a coffee. So go to my website, MississippiValleyTraveler.com/podcast and there you’ll find instructions on how to buy me a coffee and support my caffeine habit. And you can also use that same address to get to the show notes, maybe even leave a comment on an episode. Well, let’s get on with the interviews.
Dean Klinkenberg 05:41
Sabrina Chandler is the Refuge Manager of the Upper Mississippi River National Wildlife and Fish Refuge and an area supervisor over refuges on the Upper Mississippi, Illinois and Missouri Rivers. Sabrina began that role in 2014, after serving as the US Fish and Wildlife Service as Chief of Staff in Washington DC. Prior to that, Sabrina worked on refuges in Arkansas, Mississippi, South Carolina and Georgia. She had worked for the service for more than 22 years and she and her family now live in Trempealeau, Wisconsin, really close to the refuge. Hallie Schultz has worked for the US Fish and Wildlife Service for 20 years as a Refuge Ranger at various sites and has been with the Upper Miss River Refuge for eight years. Her passion is all about connecting visitors with the resource and encouraging recreation on our public lands. Sabrina and Hallie, welcome to the podcast.
Hallie Schultz 06:32
Thanks for having us.
Sabrina Chandler 06:33
Thank you for having us, Dean.
Dean Klinkenberg 06:35
Well, it’s such a pleasure to have you now especially you know, the centennial celebrations are already in full swing, I’ve been to one already in Lansing and hope to get to at least one more before it’s all said and done. I thought it’d be kind of fun to do a little bit of the past, present and future kind of format. And when we talk about the refuge, and maybe the place to start one thing I was curious about when a new refuge is created when this refuge was created 100 years ago, what did they have to do to even get this started? What were the first tasks that the early refuge managers had to tackle? And I… Hallie or whoever wants to handle that first, just jump right in?
Sabrina Chandler 07:14
Yeah, I’ll jump in on that one, Dean. I think, you know, once the refuge was established, you know, that was an entire process in itself. Will Dilg and a number of his friends and colleagues were were really forward looking in a way that helped us have the Upper Miss Refuge, and it was established through an Act of Congress. So once that was done, typically, when refuges are established through Congress, there’s some direction that Congress gives with that authorization. And so in this case, Congress wanted the states to be involved before any land acquisition occurred. And so in June of 1924, June 7 1924, when the law was signed by Calvin Coolidge, we started, you know, with the process of kind of following Congress’s direction. And so the first thing that had to happen was to get the consent from the States for the land acquisition. So I think the first managers would have really started on that right of way. And in 1925, they were able to get all of the consent from the States, and Congress allocated one and a half million dollars for land acquisition in 1925. That’s a lot of money. And so then their next task was to get to work, purchasing land. So the first couple of years, they were able to use that million and a half and acquired about 90,000 acres. And then the War Department came in and established the navigation channel. And that was in 1930. And the Corps of Engineers started acquiring land. And at that point, the Fish and Wildlife Service decided, or what was then the Biological Survey, decided that it was going to be too confusing for two agencies to start acquiring land and the Fish and Wildlife Service kind of took a backseat to the land acquisition aspect. And The Corps took the lead on that to acquire the lands they needed for the navigation project. So land acquisition was really all of the efforts up front and then slowly started transitioning into the habitat side of things.
Dean Klinkenberg 09:33
So in the beginning, there was the vision really included a lot a wide range of public uses. Can you just kind of speak to a little bit about how Congress and Will Dilg envisioned what the refuge would be like and who would have access to it and what it would be for?
Sabrina Chandler 09:49
Yeah, they did really have a multi-use approach, you know, just trying to make sure that that you had the conservation aspect, but also the reccreation. They recognized the value of recreation. Will Dilg himself use the river for recreation, he was an avid bass fisherman, and they wanted to make sure that that continued and recognizing that, you know, sportsmen at the time, were really our best conservationists. And so they wanted to make sure that that was priority. And that was written into the law and part of the consent with the states. You know, Hallie has done a lot of research with some of the public use stuff, and she serves on a committee that works with the states now to continue to coordinate that recreational use.
Dean Klinkenberg 10:36
Has the, has the public use expanded at all or changed much in those 100 years?
Hallie Schultz 10:45
We’ve had, I think one of the really interesting things that I hadn’t put a lot of thought into before I started this 100 year anniversary adventure and learning all the history of the refuge is, you know, before, you know, World War Two, or whatever, there wasn’t, and before vehicles and all major roads and, and cars weren’t as much of a thing, there wasn’t as much public use in the early you know, 1900s, as there is now because they just didn’t have access, you didn’t have people coming from all over the country to use this resource. And now, that’s obviously just grown exponentially over time. So as you have more people, you have more public use, and obviously, use has changed too. So I think that’s another thing that we have to we’ve had to manage and, and try to try to try to figure out how we’re going to have this as a resource for all the users while still maintaining that conservation mission, because I always come back to, this is public land, it is your refuge. And we want to be able to have the public use happen on this refuge, but we also have to manage for the resource. And so there’s always that balance of trying to, to and then and then the balance of managing the use of the different user groups of the refuge, which is always a game too where you have to make sure that you’ve got you know, you’re looking at the different seasons of fishing and hunting and, and migration and just making sure that you don’t have too much conflict in the user groups so that everybody has a good experience. So that’s, you know, there’s a lot that goes into that.
Dean Klinkenberg 12:38
So that sounds that’s like it’s a, that’s quite a juggling act.
Hallie Schultz 12:44
You know what it is Dean, it’s job security for me. But I love you know, the reason I do what I do is because I love to see people enjoying their public land and the outdoors. And I always say people, people don’t go out and use it and appreciate it, they’re never going to want to protect it. I mean, that’s a whole reason we have this refuge today is because the Isaac Walton League and Will Dilg and the people that really used it, and were out there and loved the river, they were the ones that protected it to continue to be a resource for us today.
Dean Klinkenberg 13:24
So yeah, so back 100 years ago, then I, you raised the point, I didn’t think much about like, you know, people have very different transportation options, and you probably there were probably a lot fewer visitors in those early years to the refuge. So who was who was really using a refuge at that time, 100 years ago, and in the first decade or so?
Hallie Schultz 13:44
I mean, I think the majority of the users were probably fishermen, maybe some recreational boating, not probably too much of that. Hunters. And I mean, I’m sure obviously wildlife observation has been a thing forever. So I’m sure that was a use out there too. But I think that those were probably two of our bigger, biggest uses. And like Sabrina said, they were early conservationists, they were the voice for a lot of our natural resources that we have. So they’re very, very important user today, still.
Sabrina Chandler 14:19
I think too there was probably a lot of what we would maybe consider today subsistence uses. So you know, people were putting food on their tables because of their use of the refuge and, and a lot of those folks were local, but you know, Will Dilg himself lived in Chicago, and he would, you know, recognize the value of nature and getting away from those big cities and getting out into our public lands or into the wild places at that time before it was public land, and enjoy in that and in a very different way than than we do now. I think technology has definitely changed our user groups, even, even in the common day, you know, we’ve seen a tremendous increase in visitation over the last 10 years because of things like this podcast, getting the word out to folks, you know, hunters come out and film their, their hunting adventures or their fishing adventures, and they’re streaming it on YouTube. And people are seeing it across the country. And, and they’re coming here because they’re learning about, you know, the folks that are using it locally. And we do see a very broad range of visitors and folks that just want to dip their toes into the river because they’re here from Germany visiting friends. And that’s such a big thing in the international community. Everybody knows the Mississippi River. And when they get here, and they see it, and they know it’s open to the public, and you can actually enjoy it. I think that’s a really compounding thing that has really it’s, it’s been really impactful on me to see. Especially our international visitors and and how this place has that impact on them as well.
Sabrina Chandler 14:20
Yeah, it’s such an iconic river like people around the world, especially Germany and Japan, especially I think, because of associate with American soldiers carrying American culture to those countries in World War Two. Those seem to be hotbeds for interest in the Mississippi as from what I’ve figured out, too. Let’s dig into just a little bit the conservation side of your vision of your management. When the refuge was created 100 years ago, what was the state of the river at that time?
Sabrina Chandler 16:38
It was a pretty wild place. John Anfinson is a very well known historian and author he wrote wrote the book, “The River We Have Wrought”, and John does a really good job of describing just the treacherous nature even of the river at that time, the backwaters were a little more open and more wild and, and the main channel, you know, very much like your background there, lots of stumps and trees and, and things like that shallow sandbars. You know, now with the the navigation channel, it’s a very, very different place. And so, early on, you had more of that naturally dynamic floodplain that, you know, the floodplain would would consume the river as it grew through snow melt or rainfall, and then it would go back to its navigation or its original channel with the navigation, you know, we have pretty much a floodplain that’s filled all of the time with the pool system. And so we don’t have those naturally occurring floodplain processes. And so yeah, it’s a very different place than it was then. But each also still carries some pretty tremendous value for conservation.
Hallie Schultz 17:58
I think one of the things I like about about if I was, you know, on the Mississippi, 100 years ago, there were places that you could walk across it, which I think is pretty crazy to think about, like, I’m gonna walk across the Mississippi River right now.
Dean Klinkenberg 18:15
Yeah, I’m in Wabashaw. I think I’ll just walk across the river to Wisconsin, right.
Hallie Schultz 18:19
It would also make it really hard, though to be in a boat, because if you hit something that shallow.
Dean Klinkenberg 18:26
Yeah. And of course, as you said, the river was dynamic. So there were I think that tended to be more late summer when the river was was especially low. And I don’t think it was every year was low enough to walk across. There were variations in that. And usually there’d be a little bit of a rise again in the fall as we get a bit more rain. Now I know, Big River Magazine has a really good issue out right now looking at the centennial and some really nice articles looking at the refuge in 25 year segments. And I would just like to touch on a couple of issues that came up with that, like I know, like, when the lock and dam system was built, it dramatically changed the ecology of the of that part of the river. And when the refuge legislation was passed, there was a carve out for future navigation projects essentially, probably apparently would not have passed without that carve out. So when we built the locks and dams, though, that had a dramatic effect on the river. And it seems like for the first 20 or so years, there was some pretty strong ecological benefits in some aspects of the refuge were thriving. Can you just say a little bit about what was going on at that point in time? Would you know about that point in time and that brief period when the river seemed to really be shining and doing well?
Sabrina Chandler 19:43
Yeah, immediately after the construction of some of the earlier locks and dams, as I mentioned earlier, you know, the floodplain was basically filled, so it enhanced the backwaters, it enhanced all of those areas that we could access it opened up new areas of inundated backwaters for the critters to enjoy. And so it basically, you know, started from from scratch in a lot of ways. I mean, I like to point to Pool 7 Lake Onalaska, you know that that was a hay field before the lock and dam system and, and now it’s it’s a big lake and one of the premier spots for some of our fisheries. And over time, you know, we’ve kind of seen that degrade just as as habitats evolved through successional phases, but that initial productivity that occurred from that expansion of that floodplain system and the inundation of it pretty much year round. It definitely had some major productivity, and gave a lot of opportunity for habitats to really thrive or critters to thrive in those habitats.
Dean Klinkenberg 21:01
Right. I know, we’re…go ahead, Hallie.
Hallie Schultz 21:03
Well, I was gonna say didn’t before the lock and dam system, when it did dry out so much didn’t they, wasn’t one of the biggest things they did was like fish rescues, so that they wouldn’t dry out. And that was one of their first you know, management things was, we had to save all the fish and move them into where they’re going to be able to stay in water so they don’t all die. And I think one of the ways they tried to manage for that was blowing up some of the riverbanks to allow water flow into some of those areas, which I thought was really interesting. So yeah, kinda kind of crazy.
Dean Klinkenberg 21:43
I’m gonna guess that part of your day to day responsibilities today do not include blowing up any river banks, but maybe I’m wrong.
Hallie Schultz 21:49
You’d be surprised Dean.
Dean Klinkenberg 21:53
Yeah. So there was some decline in habitat productivity, especially after the ’60s. And then there was a period kind of in the late ’80s and early ’90s, when there were some really concerning problems that happened to some ecosystem collapse in some places. Can you kind of describe a little bit about what happened at that time? And what do we think was going on?
Sabrina Chandler 22:19
Yeah, so specifically to the collapse, there in the late ’70s, ’80s timeframe, you know, I think there was a lot going on with the surrounding land uses, you know, the the sedimentation from farming practices, there, there weren’t the conservation practices that we have today that conserve the soils on site as well as they do now. So we had a lot of sedimentation that was occurring from those surrounding land uses. And then we had that compounded by the removal of that sedimentation from the navigation channel. And at the time, the common practice for the Corps was to pump that material into the back waters, or what we call thalweg placement, where they would just put it in the edge of the channel and let it go wherever the water took it. And so I think that combined with just like I mentioned earlier, that natural succession that we see in habitats, the degradation over time of certain habitats transitioning into earlier or later successional phases. But it really was a combination of factors. And a lot of it really was compounded by that surrounding land use, and the dredging practices of the Corps. The states weren’t really happy about that, and got very heavily engaged. And there was even some litigation that occurred and there was a big study, the GREAT study, and that’s an acronym. The, the biggest thing that really came out of that was the ability for all of the states and the federal agencies to partner on a solution. And, you know, in 1986, the Water Resources Development Act, that year came out with the Upper Mississippi River Restoration program being established. And that really was a significant turning point for for not only the refuge, but also for the Upper Mississippi River Basin. So that that really changed things because of all of that degradation that was recognized that we didn’t do something soon that we would lose that opportunity to, to have those backwater habitats that everything depends on. So that was the biggest thing.
Dean Klinkenberg 24:43
All right. So sedimentation is still a concern. The dams still trap a lot of sediment behind them and there are some areas that have filled in substantially over time, like the long lens of time. What are sort of the what are the guiding principles for the conservation mission of the refuge today?
Sabrina Chandler 25:06
So the refuge specifically, you know, obviously, over time, you know, the, the original establishment was prior to the Fish and Wildlife Service. And then once the Fish and Wildlife Service was established in the Department of Interior kind of took over sole management of the refuge, things did change quite dramatically, because it was managed as part of the National Wildlife Refuge System. And then in 1997, the National Wildlife Refuge System Improvement Act was passed. And that gave us some very clear guidance on how the refuge would be managed with regard to not only our natural resource management, but also with our recreation and public uses. And so we’re, we’re bound by law in a lot of ways. And so that statutory requirement drives a lot of our conservation principles in itself. But beyond that, you know, the partnership that we have here on the river is really honestly like no other, I’ve had the good fortune to work all over the country. And, and I’ve worked with the Corps of Engineers in a lot of places. And, and we have a very special partnership here with the Fish and Wildlife Service and the Corps of Engineers, and our four states, where the refuge occurs – Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, and then expanded into the full Upper Mississippi River Basin, which includes Missouri, where we also have national wildlife refuges beyond the Upper Miss Refuge proper. And so that partnership of folks really helped drive those conservation principles together. And so we try to work on those things, not only because we’re required to from a statutory purpose, but also because we can make sure that we can leverage relationships and resources. And, you know, nobody ever has enough time and money. But together, we can do a lot of great things and those conservation principles, really making sure that we’re protecting this habitat in in long term in perpetuity, but making sure that it’s thriving, and that it’s beneficial to the resources, and that includes the people who use it.
Dean Klinkenberg 27:25
There are, as you alluded to, there are so many hands involved with the Mississippi, a lot of different agencies have some role in managing some part of it, or some aspect of it. So you can’t you obviously you don’t operate in a vacuum, you can’t just decide we’re going to do this today and just go out and do it, you have to have all the the negotiations and discussions with all these various partners. So and I know like you don’t have a bottomless pit of money to work with to fund the refuge. So when it comes to let’s just say on the conservation side, when it comes to deciding where to focus your time and energy for specific projects, how do you decide where to put your limited resources into, what drives those decisions about which projects you really want to focus on?
Sabrina Chandler 28:12
That’s the million dollar question.
Dean Klinkenberg 28:16
All right, I’ll take a check.
Sabrina Chandler 28:17
Yeah, that’s, that’s something that we we really struggle with, because, you know, we have, we have a lot of pressure both from the public and then just the needs of the system, the partnership. And as you mentioned, we we don’t have that bottomless pit of of bankroll, but the the way that we really focus on the priority is where we can move the needle the most. Sometimes that’s not always possible, and it’s more of the squeaky wheel. But, you know, we try to be as realistic as possible with making those tough decisions on invasive species, for example, you know, they’re, they’re always going to be there. There’s always new ones coming in. And sometimes we have to take a triage approach and say, okay, you know what, this one is pretty much naturalized, we’re going to just kind of accept that, and we’re going to really focus on some of these new invaders that are coming in that are having a more significant impact. And so it’s kind of a mixed bag. And it really depends on what, what the issue is. And sometimes we’re told, you know, we’re government employees, and we serve at the request of the administration, and sometimes they have priorities that will shift, you know, our workload and how we focus our efforts here as well. So there’s a combination of things that have happened there.
Hallie Schultz 29:54
One of the great things about working for this agency is that the people are very passionate about what they do, and are willing to put in the work. And, you know, you don’t hear people complaining, complaining, they just want to, they want to do good work. And, and like Sabrina said, we are really fortunate that we can leverage partnerships and volunteers and all of the other really passionate people that work and live along the river. So, you know, we do, we do rely on those partners and our friends groups, and all of the volunteers to assist us with the all the work that comes into considering this and, and so I want to point that out that we do have some assistance from from those kinds of people too. And we are very fortunate for that.
Dean Klinkenberg 30:47
Hey, Dean Klinkenberg here, interrupting myself. Just wanted to remind you that if you’d like to know more about the Mississippi River, check out my books. I write the Mississippi Valley Traveler guide books for people who want to get to know the Mississippi better. I also write the Frank Dodge mystery series that is set in places along the Mississippi. My newest book, “The Wild Mississippi” goes deep into the world of Old Man River, learn about the varied and complex ecosystems supported by the Mississippi, the plant and animal life that depends on them, and where you can go to experience it all. Find any of these wherever books are sold.
Dean Klinkenberg 31:27
Yeah, I was gonna ask about the friends groups too, like do you want to just describe a little bit about who they are and what kind of help they provide for the refuge?
Hallie Schultz 31:37
Yeah, so the Upper Miss Refuge, just kind of a quick overview on how it works. We, since the refuge is so long, it’s 261 miles long, we are split into four management districts. So though, and those districts are based on the pools, so you know, Winona district is the furthest north district, and they manage pool, essentially, they manage pools, 4 through 6. La Crosse is 7 and 8, La Crosse district and then you’ve got McGregor district. And then you have a Savanna district. So each district has its own office in it. And each district also has its own friends group. So. So that’s really cool, because we basically have four friends groups. And then we also have the Friends of the Upper Mississippi River who work a lot with our fisheries, which is a whole nother kind of branch of the Fish and Wildlife Service. So we do have a lot of support from those groups. And one of the one of the biggest things that they do is they can they can lobby for things. You know, they’re nonprofit. So we obviously, as government employees can’t do that. They also, you know, they can raise money and funding for projects that we might not otherwise be able to get. So I’m sure Sabrina could probably add to that.
Sabrina Chandler 33:04
The biggest thing I think is they’re there. They’re advocates for the refuge. And they do that in a lot of ways. So we really couldn’t do what we do without our friends groups and our volunteers for sure Hallie’s absolutely right with that.
Dean Klinkenberg 33:20
Yeah, and I was in Lansing in February for the Friends of Pool 9 event for the Centennial watching Steven Marking doing his show on Will Dilg. And in fact, I had Steven Marking on the podcast to talk about Will Dilg a few weeks ago. They’re a big group, a lot of people who are involved in helping out. I was impressed with the number of people they have involved and I’m sure some of them also, you may be are available for volunteer hours if you need help for a day to pull purple loosestrife or whatever invasive you want to attack a lot of particular place.
Sabrina Chandler 33:58
Yeah, I think the the last number I heard for membership for Friends of Pool 9, like 800 members or something. They are a passionate group and, and they they do an annual banquet every year that brings in a lot. A lot of folks they have a great auction, they raise a lot of good money to do a lot of great work. You know, they they have some volunteers that collect acorns for us, and we ship those acorns to a nursery and we grow hardwood trees to do our forest restoration. That way we have the local phenotype that can survive the flood durations and things that we see in these areas. And so the value that they bring, friends groups in general and in particular that that on ongoing project that Friends of Pool 9 supported, yeah, you just can’t place a dollar amount on that.
Dean Klinkenberg 34:52
Absolutely, I want to…so on the conservation side. Let’s I kind of want to wrap up with just talking a little bit about some of the challenges and then we’ll get into recreation a little bit more too but I’m kind of wondering, like, from your perspective today, what are some of the biggest conservation challenges that you’re facing in the refuge?
Sabrina Chandler 35:10
Besides the one that we’ve already talked about not having enough people and money, you know, the other, the biggest one really is climate change, you know, that’s really driving so much change in the system. It’s compounding all of the factors that we we struggle with on a, on a bigger scale, you know, the flooding, inundation and duration is changing. You know, we’re also seeing extremes with droughts. So just the polar opposites that are occurring, the extremes on either end, instead of more of that moderate level activity. We’ve been in a couple of years of drought, which I think in 2019, none of us ever could have imagined that we would be in a multi-year drought. And so, you know, those impacts of climate change those extreme weather events from one direction to another, really are having a significant impact on our ability to manage and predict and you know, just really be able to, to move the needle for conservation. So we’re taking different approaches to our work as a result of that. In the Fish and Wildlife Service, we use a framework called Resist Accept and Direct, the RAD framework. You know, those of us that lived in the 80s know, that term had a little bit of a different, a lot of good jokes about how rad we are these days on climate change.
Dean Klinkenberg 36:38
It would work on me.
Sabrina Chandler 36:40
Yeah, there you go. So climate change is one of them. And it really is changing the way that we approach our work and trying to be more intentional building in that resiliency, adapting to that climate change, and really just trying to anticipate where we might end up. But that’s by far our biggest challenge.
Dean Klinkenberg 37:02
Yeah, I know, there’s been some discussion about the health of floodplain forest in particular, it seems like after the extended high water and 2019 in particular, but not just then a lot of trees have died back in the floodplain forests. And it’s not just in the refuge that in my part of the river, too, I see large areas where trees have died. And I think probably because, well, even though these are trees that are adapted to live in the floodplain and be wet for a while they do have a limit. And they can’t survive beyond a certain amount of time where their feet are wet. So you’re seeing some of that floodplain forest loss and trying to figure out, I assume do you have an idea of what you would like to be able to do to deal with some of that?
Sabrina Chandler 37:44
Yeah, the floodplain forest loss is a big impact on our habitat, just from the the we are one of the largest contiguous remaining floodplain forest habitats left, just by nature of our length and the size of the refuge. But yeah, climate change, definitely having an impact on that habitat type. It’s one of our priority resources of concern in our conservation management plans. And so we’re really focusing hard and heavy on that aspect because of those impacts. So we’re doing a lot of work again, with the partnership through the Upper Mississippi River Restoration Program, we have a couple of habitat rehabilitation and enhancement projects that come out of that program. They’re funded through the Corps of Engineers through an allocation from Congress each year. And so we’ve got a number of those projects that we’re actually elevating some of the landscape in the back waters to give those trees a little bit more buffer to that high water that we see in this new normal. But we’re also restoring some of the tree species that haven’t been able to regenerate on their own. So you know, some of the heavier mass trees that the acorns can’t germinate because of the high water and so we’re actually bringing in a new approach, root production method, technique for tree restoration where we’re planting containerized seedlings so they have a little bit of a jumpstart, they can be more successful with those dynamic changes in their water levels. So we’re doing a lot of work on that through that Upper Mississippi River Restoration Program. The Refuge was funded through the Inflation Reduction Act for some climate adaptation and resiliency, and we recently received some funding through that specifically for floodplain restoration throughout the system. Beyond the Upper Miss Refuge, all of our refuges on on the Upper Mississippi River will have received some of that benefit. So, so high priority, we’re working really hard on that trying to come up with new ways to be successful. But trying to combat those impacts and make sure that those floodplain forests are here for the next 100 years.
Dean Klinkenberg 40:13
Right. And I saw some of those plans too. And I imagined again, because partly because you’ve got these limited resources, the idea of elevating the floodplain will work in a handful of places. But that’s not something that’s necessarily going to scale up real well, you can’t elevate the floodplain and the whole refuge.
Sabrina Chandler 40:30
Right, right. And it’s pretty expensive. And it takes some pretty intensive engineering. And so the Corps is able to do that for us, but where we don’t have the ability to utilize that Corps program, with the Corps of Engineers, then yeah, we have to get a little more creative. And that’s where some of those different types of seedlings come in, and we can still give them that headstart and hope that they can survive.
Dean Klinkenberg 40:55
Right. And I suppose for a little while, you know, maybe for a generation even, we just might see some islands in particular that are more grassland than forest.
Sabrina Chandler 41:04
Yeah. And, you know, there’s a pretty common saying around here that, you know, a lot of us are doing all this work, and we’ll never see the benefits. And that’s really hard for some people to wrap their heads around, a lot of us want to see that direct result from our work. But but we don’t have that in this business very often. And especially with floodplain restoration, you know, we’re talking about, you know, the next generation, actually seeing the benefits of that work. And so it’s…
Hallie Schultz 41:35
I was gonna say, on that note, actually, Sabrina, I was thinking, how cool it is that we, I, you know, we since this has been established for 100 years now, how we, as employees of the refuge got have gotten to see how we’ve adapted and managed and made things, you know, better and have done island restoration and have seen those successes over time, and have actually gotten to witness that in the last 100 years, so we might not be able to be around for the next 100. But at least you get to see some of the stuff that’s actually worked and been successful. So that’s pretty cool.
Dean Klinkenberg 42:18
Yeah, from an institutional perspective, you do have a memory, you can look back on the projects and see what worked. Some of the folks who were involved in those 100 years ago, not so much, but for you, that’s nice to be able to see that continuity. So we could probably talk all day on the conservation side of things. And I like to geek out on that at times too. But I also like I just love visiting the refuge. And I live in St. Louis, as I said, when we were before we started recording, and every time I go up to La Crosse to visit friends, I’m so envious of how easy it is to access parks with all this great backwater habitat and these areas that are so accessible, I have to drive an hour really to get anything close to that near like that in my area. Do you have a ballpark idea of how many people are visiting the refuge from year to year at this point?
Hallie Schultz 43:12
I think we can estimate around three and a half million visitors annually. You know that’s what it’s it’s hard to get real good counts of numbers. We have to use a little math and guesswork on that. But we do have I think the reason we we have such high visitation is because people are coming to the river to recreate and might not even realize that it’s a refuge. You know, it’s not like if you’re going to Yellowstone National Park, you know that that’s your destination, you’re going to this national park I think a lot of our use, they’re on a national wildlife refuge and they don’t realize they’re on a refuge. So we have a lot of public use that are coming in using this amazing resource that we’re trying to manage for, for the public the best way we can and they don’t even know it’s a wildlife refuge. So that’s one of our biggest challenges is letting people know that this is a wildlife refuge. And can it’s part of a bigger system.
Dean Klinkenberg 44:16
You almost need to put up a station where they can put a stamp in a passport like they do for the national parks.
Hallie Schultz 44:22
We actually have those.
Dean Klinkenberg 44:24
All right. So just off the top of your head now give me a list of the different kinds of uses the different kinds of ways people can enjoy the refuge.
Hallie Schultz 44:34
Well, okay, I’ll start, Sabrina can chime in. Obviously, you know, any kind of boating activity so if if you can do it by boat, people do it. Fishing, waterfowl hunting, turkey and deer hunting on the islands. We’ve got obviously different kinds of fishing that people do. We’ve got people that are just wildlife watching people that that are out kayaking, canoeing. wildlife photography is a big thing out here. Obviously I see some people with some really big lenses taking photos, which is I’m whenever I see that I’m like, what are they looking at? So we’re gonna pull over and see what they’re getting photos out. We’ve got, gosh, I don’t know. I mean, the I feel like every year there’s a new use we have. You know, in the wintertime we have ice fishing, we have, you know, people that we have trapping that happens along the river, of course. What am I missing? There’s so many.
Sabrina Chandler 45:40
I think, I think the big one, Hallie, that is unique to the Upper Midwest that not a lot of national wildlife refuges have is camping. You know, we here we have a significant number of folks during the summertime who will find our beaches, as the perfect camping spot, you know, they’ll bring their families out and they’ll stay. Fourth of July week is always a huge, huge time on the refuge, just from a purely recreational standpoint, folks are swimming and camping and boating and just sunbathing on the beaches. So we typically see a significant increase in users obviously, during the summer, but especially you know, in those big holidays, where we see those specific increases, related to camping and just recreational boating, you know, the other things that we do that that we probably wouldn’t think about as recreation, per se, but are still considered uses of the refuge. There’s a lot of research going on here. Lots of research from universities, lots of research from the states, lots of researchers, even internationally, and so not necessarily recreation, but but people are researching recreation and how that recreation is impacting the resource. Why people are recreating here and what impacts that has, there’s been a lot of economic studies on the uses of the refuge and how that provides economic development to the local community surrounding the refuge because of all that recreation. So that’s another point that I always like to bring up because we kind of set the bar for a lot of things because the research is centered here. And that transcends to other areas as well.
Dean Klinkenberg 47:37
Right, and I forgot you, you’ve got the US Geological Survey station in French Island there, near La Crosse, doing research on water quality and river management. So yeah, there’s a lot going on. That may be the most heavily researched part of a river anywhere in the world at this point.
Sabrina Chandler 47:52
It’s a big part of what we do for sure. The USGS runs the long term resource monitoring part portion of the Upper Mississippi River Restoration. Their three focus pools in that program or all three on the Upper Miss Refuge. And so we benefit tremendously from from that information and that long term, you know, now over 35 years worth of data.
Dean Klinkenberg 48:21
So you mentioned boating, I know I’m a paddler. So I like getting out in a canoe or especially so you’ve got several paddling and designated paddling trails. Can you just say something about those trails and what people can expect from them?
Hallie Schultz 48:36
Yeah, we have I think 16 water trails on the refuge. So there’s one at least one in every district multiple and all the districts. They vary in their difficulty and also seasonally, so I think one thing I always tell people when they ask about water trails on the refuge is to know what the conditions are. Just you know not just a month ago even before we had all the rain one of our water trails here the Lake Onalaska Water Trail was so low that you would have had to portage your canoe every 10 feet and now it’s you know, definitely navigable so so obviously what since the river does change and the backwaters change so much. You want to know what your route is and know your conditions but we have some of the most beautiful trails that you can experience you get you get on the on those trails and you don’t you feel like you’re back 100 years ago. You don’t see anything or hear people and you know you’ve got great blue herons that will fly out in front of you and and the bald eagles oh my gosh. The bald eagles on the river. I can’t believe we didn’t even talk about that yet people love the bald eagles. There are so many. Pool 9 has like over a hundred active eagle nests now, I mean, it’s wild. That’s just Pool 9. So I’m, that’s, that’s a whole nother I mean, that’s a whole nother thing to talk about successes. But yeah, the water trails are amazing and I highly encourage people, some are some are circular, so you don’t have to get a shuttle. So there are some that have you know, the put in and take out his in the same location and some are where you have to get a someone to shuttle you so that you can get back to your to your boat. But all of them are really special in their, their own way. And they should be pretty well marked with our canoe trail signs. And you can find all of them on our website, I’ve got them all up with our directions and some of the you know, things to expect.
Dean Klinkenberg 50:47
I can post a link to that in the show notes as well as, yeah, you make it hard to get lost. So that’s probably a good thing for most of us. Are there. So I know, Sabrina mentioned the popularity of the river on the Fourth of July, and around the Fourth of July. And I know summer weekends when the weather’s nice, it gets very busy out there. Do you have any tips for people. Places they might be able to go to get away from some of the bigger crowds? Or places that might be a little less visited?
Sabrina Chandler 51:17
Don’t go on the fourth of July?
Dean Klinkenberg 51:20
Just don’t go on the Fourth of July.
Hallie Schultz 51:22
Yeah, no, I mean, I think if you it’s just like anywhere if you can find some of the backwaters and, and gems and maybe smaller towns that are those cute little quaint river towns that might not have as much, much use, obviously, you know, weekdays are gonna be not as busy as weekends and time of the year is another thing. So just kind of looking at all of those factors is can be helpful. Yeah, I don’t know that I would say that there’s any spot in particular that see now. Here’s the thing. I mean, if I tell you, then everyone’s gonna know about it, and then.
Dean Klinkenberg 52:02
Maybe you can tell me when we’re done recording, and I’ll go there myself.
Sabrina Chandler 52:07
Everybody has their favorite spot. And it really does depend on what you’re looking for, you know, if you want to take a nice paddle, you know, some of the trails are used more than others. So it really does depend, but in my opinion, and I’m clearly biased. There’s no bad spot on the refuge.
Dean Klinkenberg 52:27
Yeah. So there are a couple of other refuges in the general vicinity. And I think they technically are have different management, although the management may be consolidated at this point. So there’s the Trempealeau National Wildlife Refuge and the Driftless Area Refuge. Can you just speak a little bit to your relationships with those refuges? And what’s different about them?
Sabrina Chandler 52:49
Yeah, sure. So, administratively, those are individual refuges separate from the Upper Miss Refuge. But we manage those out of our Upper Miss districts. So the Trempealeau Refuge, as the name implies, is in Trempealeau, Wisconsin, just around 9000 acres a little less than that. They are, they have their own staff, but they are what we call a complex. They’re part of the administrative staff of the La Crosse district of the Upper Miss. And so we share resources and staff and work together on those refuges. We mentioned earlier, you know, we don’t have enough staff and money and so we have to really kind of make sure that we’re collaborating. The Driftless Area does not have its own staff or office and it is managed out of our McGregor office, McGregor district office in Prairie du Chien. So those function as standalone refuges, but administratively, they are managed out of our Upper Miss offices, very unique in their own way. Driftless Area was established to protect endangered species, the algific talus slopes that are protected by the acquisition of those lands that are included in the Driftless Area Refuge. The Iowa pleistocene snail and northern monkshood plant are very very unique landscape resources that are protected there the Trempealeau actually used to be a fur and fish farm. And so we have some pretty active wetland management there. Prairie restoration and management very very cool places and definitely just as unique and valuable to conservation and this geography as the Upper Miss Refuge. So I appreciate you bringing those up.
Dean Klinkenberg 52:50
Yeah, the Trempealeau Refuge is one of my favorite spots to go. I know like I’m sure it gets plenty of visitors but it seems like I always manage to pick a time to go when there’s hardly anybody else around. And it just attracts so many birds. So it’s a great spot for wildlife spotting. I’ve seen beaver and muskrat there as well. So I think that’s really a particularly special place. And it’s really easy to get to I really, I love that. I don’t feel like I’m giving away any secrets there.
Sabrina Chandler 55:19
Yeah, yeah, the access there is very different, obviously, than, than the Upper Miss. You can drive in and they have an auto tour loop.
Hallie Schultz 55:26
They’ve got really distinct boundaries too you know, I mean, that’s, that’s another big difference between the Upper Miss and a lot of other refuges is that, you know, you can look at a map and say that is Trempealeau Refuge, you can see the the boundary around it, whereas the Upper Miss Refuge is, you know, pieces of land all and water all the way up and down. 260 mile stretch, they actually had over 4000 transactions on their first purchasing land, which I thought was crazy.
Dean Klinkenberg 55:59
That is, yeah, you’re right. Like when you’re traveling down the river, you’re never quite sure if you’re in the National Wildlife Refuge, or on Corps land, or a state park, or maybe even a city park like that. You could be in any one of those as you’re traveling down, which makes it a little harder for folks to maybe appreciate what the refuge itself is doing.
Sabrina Chandler 56:17
Yeah. You mentioned Corps land. And we talked about the Fish and Wildlife Service stopped purchasing land initially, when the navigation system was created. The Corps of Engineers purchased another almost 110,000 I think it was actually like around 106,000 acres. We manage that as part of the National Wildlife Refuge System through a cooperative agreement with the Corps. And so a lot of the Corps of Engineers land is actually managed as National Wildlife Refuge. So that just adds to the confusion even more.
Dean Klinkenberg 56:50
Yeah, well, well, I’m mindful of the time. And so we’re gonna kind of have to wind it down here. So I don’t take keep up your whole day, I know, you’ve probably got plenty of other things you need to do you maybe need to build a carp barrier, or I don’t know, you probably have lots of things going on. What are a couple of things that you would really what’s something that you would really like people to know about the refuge that you you think would more people should know?
Sabrina Chandler 57:17
I’ll jump in there. And I know how Hallie has got some ideas on this as well. But, you know, one thing that we did when we really started thinking about what it meant for us to celebrate our 100th anniversary is set some objectives because we didn’t want to just have a party, we didn’t want to just say, yay we’re 100 years old. We wanted to be more intentional with with our efforts surrounding that significant event. And so we had a great team of folks that included a bunch of partners and friends members and just local community, folks, and staff and we set some objectives. And the first objective was to help people realize, if this refuge had not been created in 1924 by some really forward looking folks, what this area would look like today. And it would be very different. It would be levee to agriculture, it would be residential areas, it would be urbanized, it would be very, very different. And so we first of all want folks to understand that we would be in a very different place, literally and figuratively, if if the refuge had not been created. The other thing is that it is a refuge and Hallie mentioned this earlier, we want to make sure that people understand that when they’re on the Mississippi River, near La Crosse, Wisconsin, or any of the other places within the refuge, that they’re on public land that’s managed as a system, 571 now I think, national wildlife refuges across the country and into the Pacific, and the territories, it’s it’s a system, we’re all managed as part of a system and that is pretty significant. And I think a lot of people don’t realize the value that that brings to our own backyards. And so that’s one thing that I want people to, to understand and appreciate. And then third, you know, we want people to think about kind of, you know, where we go from here. And, and we, you know, have our little logo that we had produced for this celebration and, and it’s significant because it says the first 100 years, and that’s intentional, because we want to look forward into the next 100 years and, and make sure that we’re leaving the legacy that we’re living now from Will Dilg and all of those folks in that early time. So those are the things that I just want to make sure that your listeners know and understand and if they live or in and around the refuge or if they come to visit, that they understand just how fortunate we are, that people took that time 100 years ago to work so hard to make this happen. And how fortunate we are to have this right here in our backyards.
Hallie Schultz 1:00:22
Yeah, I guess I would say that, you know, the, the way that I always like to explain the importance of refuges, and this not, I mean, this refuge, but all refuges is, I use the analogy of being on a road trip. And how, when you’re on a road trip you need, you need restaurants, you need fuel, you need gas stations for your car, you need a place to stop and sleep. And if you don’t have those things, you’re not going to make it very far in the road trip, especially as required. And it it’s the exact same thing for for wildlife, birds and wildlife, they need places to rest they need places to, to sleep, they have to recharge. They have their favorite restaurants right here on Lake Onalaska, the canvasbacks favorite food is out here. And so we get some of the base population canvasbacks that stops here, the tundra swans they love the river over by Brownsville that’s like their favorite restaurant ever. And so that you’ll see them there and I think without you know this being established as a refuge and all of our other refuges those birds on their superhighway flyway, they’re not going to make it very far if they don’t have those places to rest and feed and fuel up. And, and that’s what refuges are. And that’s why they’re so important. So I like to use that because we can all we all know what that is like being on a road trip. I love asking kids out there like I’m gonna need my iPad, what are you going to need on a road trip. Um, and the last thing i i will end on is that I think it’s really important that you and your friends or family and you invite somebody to go and actually experience and enjoy the river, because nothing is going to make you want to protect and preserve it more than enjoying it and making connections with it. So without that, that, you know, without that desire to want to protect it, then we’ll we won’t have the support to keep doing what we’re doing. So yeah, go out and enjoy it.
Dean Klinkenberg 1:02:46
So there are some public events coming up to mark the centennial. And I’m just kind of curious, do you have any events, whether it’s related to the centennial or not that you that coming up this summer that you’d like to plug or mention?
Hallie Schultz 1:03:00
We have our big event here at the La Crosse district is happening on June 22. And it will be at our visitor center here in Onalaska, Wisconsin, that will go from 10 to 2 with boat rides and partner activities and booths and different talks and things like that should be pretty fun. And yes, there will be cake. The birthday party, um, the Savanna District is having their big celebration on June 8, and that will be taking place out of their visitor contact station area, they’re going to be doing tours to the lost mound unit and they have a whole bunch of other activities planned through the day as well. There are a number of other things that are happening up and down the river. There are a lot of things that have already happened. But our partners have actually started a website to host a lot of those activities that aren’t necessarily refuge specific, you know, hosted by staff, because all of our partners are doing activities too. So and that website is uppermiss100.com. So I recommend putting that in there and then also putting our website as well for other activities.
Dean Klinkenberg 1:04:17
Great. I’ll put those in the show notes. Do you have social media accounts that are active that people can follow you at as well? Or?
Hallie Schultz 1:04:26
Yeah, we have a feed the refuge has a Facebook page. So we will put stuff there. We put a lot of stuff in Explore La Crosse, trying to think other platforms that we use for pushing stuff but the the refuge specifically has a our website and our Facebook page are our biggest tools for getting that out and of course news releases that will then be spread out to other resources.
Dean Klinkenberg 1:04:57
Fantastic. Sabrina. Hallie. Gosh, thank you so much for taking the time to talk about the refuge. It’s a fantastic place and three and a half million people visiting it already. So it’s not really a secret. But I hope more people get out and explore the different nooks and crannies and really get to know the refuge well. Thank you so much for your time.
Sabrina Chandler 1:05:17
Thanks Dean. We appreciate you helping us get the word out.
Hallie Schultz 1:05:21
Thank you Dean.
Dean Klinkenberg 1:05:32
And now it’s time for the Mississippi Minute. Well, this episode is all about heaping praise on our federal wildlife refuges. I know there are many other public lands along the Mississippi, many of which I mentioned in “The Wild Mississippi”, shameless plug. But in this episode, I want to focus just on the refuges. And I recently pulled up a map of all of the federal refuges across the country just to make sure I wasn’t missing any. But it’s remarkable how many federal refuges line the Mississippi River or very close to the Mississippi. And I’m not even looking at national forests or those kinds of public lands. These are just the federal refuges. So I just want to name a few of these. And just to be clear, we’ve already mentioned the Upper Mississippi National Wildlife Refuge as well as Trempealeau and Driftless Area NWRs. So the ones I’m about to talk about are in addition to those in northern Minnesota, Crane Meadows National Wildlife Refuge is pretty close to the Mississippi near St. Cloud. Port Louisa in Iowa is just south of Muscatine, then in Missouri and Illinois, the Great River National Wildlife Refuge, Two Rivers National Wildlife Refuge, and the Middle Mississippi National Wildlife Refuge. All of them cover or include territory in both Missouri and Illinois. Continuing on south we’ve got Reelfoot Lake that is mostly in Tennessee, but includes a little bit of Kentucky as well. And then south of there, mostly on the Tennessee side is the Chickasaw and Lower Hatchie National Wildlife Refuge. Across the river in Arkansas, the Wappanocca Refuge is just a couple miles away from the Mississippi but certainly in the river’s floodplain. In Mississippi, St. Catherine Creek, I had a great time hiking around that refuge a couple different times, including one year when I was jokingly calling one of the trails the spider trail because there were so many orb weavers that had built webs across the trail, beautiful spiders. And then down in Louisiana, a couple of my favorite spots are Cat Island and Bayou Sauvage. The latter basically, are right on the edge of New Orleans. I’m wondering well which refuges are your favorite spots? Which federal refuges in particular are your favorites along the Mississippi? Do you have a tip you’d like to share about visiting any of them? Any secret places you’d like us to know about or semi secret places you can keep the secret ones to yourself? If you have something to share about any of these refuges, drop me a line at MississippiValleyTraveler.com/contact
Dean Klinkenberg 1:08:06
Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the series on your favorite podcast app so you don’t miss out on future episodes. I offer the podcast for free but when you support the show with a few bucks through Patreon, you helped keep the program going. Just go to patreon.com/DeanKlinkenberg. If you want to know more about the Mississippi River, check out my books. I write the Mississippi Valley Traveler guide books for people who want to get to know the Mississippi better. I also write the Frank Dodge mystery series set in certain places along the river. Find them wherever books are sold. The Mississippi Valley Traveler Podcast is written and produced by me, Dean Klinkenberg. Original Music by Noah Fence. See you next time.
